Would America be justified in treating Pakistan as an enemy?

[RZZZA]

just a simple question. I know there are a lot of anti-American posters here, I don't care much about your opinion. I'm asking the Americans and Western European members whose interests echo ours.

America invaded Afghanistan because the Taliban was sheltering Al Qaeda. Now we've come to the realization that Osama has been living comfortably in Pakistan for years, obviously with Pakistans blessings. You'd have to be naive to think Pakistani officials didn't know about it.

Today I see images of Pakistani citizens gathering in crowds to mourn the death of bin Laden, burn American flags and denounce our raid.

Serious question: Should we pretend any further that Pakistan is a U.S. ally? Should we continue to give them billions of dollars in aid? I'm actually really pissed at them. If this is an "ally", it's the strangest sort of ally I've ever seen.

[Principe Alessandro]

Just cut the aid funding for Pakistan, they don't deserve it.

[Menelik_I]

Just cut the aid funding for Pakistan, they don't deserve it.

^This.

Also somebody tell David Cameron to stop buying ing submarines for Pakistan.

[Sir Pignans]

^This.

Also somebody tell David Cameron to stop buying ing submarines for Pakistan.

Thats not aid....

And the UK? Buying military thingies (I have a bad vocabulary, shush. ), if only.

[Nevins]

There is a difference between suspecting the ISI of having interests counter to that of the U.S. and deeming the entire Pakistani govt/ people hostile in some way.

[RZZZA]

There is a difference between suspecting the ISI of having interests counter to that of the U.S. and deeming the entire Pakistani govt/ people hostile in some way.

I know opinion is split on this but its hard not to consider them hostile when they shelter bin laden and I see crowds of people on Tv mourning bin Laden, burning U.S. flags and denouncing us.

I mean, NATO invaded and occupied a country for sheltering Al Qaeda. How is this bin Laden/Pakistan situation not a similar sort of thing?

If we declared war on Taliban, shouldn't we also treat Pakistan as a hostile country? I know the politics doesnt make such a flippant decision pragmatic or prudent but intellectual honesty and consistency almost demands it.

[Principe Alessandro]

There is a difference between suspecting the ISI of having interests counter to that of the U.S. and deeming the entire Pakistani govt/ people hostile in some way.

It does matter who runs there and it is clear that the Government hasn't any kind of power over the ISI and the Military.

[Sir Pignans]

No. They should continue with them as a friend, but perhaps an untrustworthy friend.

After all, they did go to war with the Taliban in the northern parts of their territory.

[alhoon]

No. They should continue with them as a friend, but perhaps an untrustworthy friend.

After all, they did go to war with the Taliban in the northern parts of their territory.

Actually an incopetent friend.
I don't think much of the Pakistani goverment was pro-Al Qaeda, but they simply weren't competent enough.
BTW, they have a dictatorship that should be toppled, but if the alternative is fundamentalists, then perhaps things are better that way.

[bamxa91]

BTW, they have a dictatorship that should be toppled, but if the alternative is fundamentalists, then perhaps things are better that way.

Erm mate, dictatorship? Pakistan has for once a democratically elected government that is on the verge of completing its full term without a military intervention. Despite all of Pakistan's failings it an extremely resilient country. Sure its nice and easy to say Pakistanis are bad people, terrorists, fundamentalists etc, but Pakistan is a very complex country as some people have pointed out before in this thread. more than 190 million people who have wethered natural disasters, lost more than 30000 people during this "war on terror". Tony Blair recently said:

‘I do think we should remember there are some 30,000 Pakistani civilians and 5,000 members of Pakistani security forces who have also died as a result of this campaign of terror that Osama Bin Laden represented. They have died too in these last years.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1LuKD93CP

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Better to try be friends with them.Alot of people have been victems of terror attacks in that country and im sure it was only a minority that were burning your flag.You should keep ur money and stop paying Egypt Israel and Pakistan money and others to be your friends and look after your economy

[calicheSCOT]

Well the situation in Pakistan is deeply complex, we don't know for sure that the government knew about Osama bin Laden's presence in the country and it would be rather difficult to prove. In fact the whole episode shows just how divided Pakistan is, they have effectively been fighting a civil war in their tribal regions for years.

Also, Pakistan is a nuclear-armed country, I doubt the US would find much support in treating them as a official enemy and would be very, very foolish to do so.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Can Pakistan hit america with there nukes?China is also Pakistans ally

[calicheSCOT]

Can Pakistan hit america with there nukes?China is also Pakistans ally

No, but they can hit India, and when nukes start flying its only a matter of time before it escalates. China and Russia's warheads can hit the US.

[Tiberios]

Can Pakistan hit america with there nukes?

Which is not the concern about Pakistans nukes. The problem is that these nukes might end up in the hands of fanatical religious groups in Pakistan if the state collapses.

[RZZZA]

well I don't mean we should invade them, obviously that would be horrible for all sides involved. I just mean we should stop pretending like they're our allies, stop giving them aid, and basically shun them. They fight some terrorists and support others. the ones they support also like to go kill U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

so calling them allies seems to be a big joke. And I just can't get over the fact that Osama was living there for 5 years, not even hiding. It's a big double standard between what we did to Afghanistan and what we refuse to do with Pakistan.

[calicheSCOT]

well I don't mean we should invade them, obviously that would be horrible for all sides involved. I just mean we should stop pretending like they're our allies, stop giving them aid, and basically shun them. They fight some terrorists and support others. the ones they support also like to go kill U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

so calling them allies seems to be a big joke. And I just can't get over the fact that Osama was living there for 5 years, not even hiding.

If they did that then those element's within Pakistan that are sympathetic would switch and the whole country would turn against the US, joining Iran and a host of other Muslim countries that hate the West making the situation far more dangerous for everyone involved.

It's a big double standard between what we did to Afghanistan and what we refuse to do with Pakistan.

Double standards pretty much sums up US foriegn policy for the last fifty years, if not longer.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

well I don't mean we should invade them, obviously that would be horrible for all sides involved. I just mean we should stop pretending like they're our allies, stop giving them aid, and basically shun them. They fight some terrorists and support others. the ones they support also like to go kill U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

so calling them allies seems to be a big joke. And I just can't get over the fact that Osama was living there for 5 years, not even hiding. It's a big double standard between what we did to Afghanistan and what we refuse to do with Pakistan.

Of course he was hiding he did not walk around singing and making daisy chains he would have been grassed up for the price tag on his head.That guy was a rat in a sewer.He was a coward hiding behind his wife at the end.

[RZZZA]

I doubt anybody is going to send nukes anywhere...

nukes are more of a threat than an actual weapon people would use. Once one nuke is sent, it mean a chain reaction where pretty much all sides are obliterated.

Even with the threat of invasion, pakistan will not risk annihilating their country altogether by sending a nuke.

[Azog 150]

As others have stated Pakistan is very divided. The ISI are a force all of their own, and they would be the ones who knew of Bin Laden even if the government did not

Being a nuclear power, the safety of those nukes in a very unstable country is a massive priority. In fact I think its one of the main reasons we are still fighting in Afghanistan.

Withdrawing Pakistani aid and shunning them will leave the government in a very precarious position, and liable to be toppled. Pakistan is home to many separatist and radical extremist groups, alongside the Taliban. Then there is also the ISI pulling strings, seemingly contrary to government wishes. Also bear in mind that not long ago the country was under military dictatorship.

Pakistan's nukes falling to extremists would be an absolute disaster.

There is also the fact that the military is helping fight the Taliban, thus helping us get out of Afghanistan faster