how to defend yourself from the mongols

[Dr. Freeman]

I've been playing around as the Kwarezmians in the late campaign stainless steel 6.4 with meneths submod compilation, and I found it very hard to win a battle against the mongols. I have never failed playing as a faction before so I wonder what the key is to defeating the mongols. Only fight in the seige battles? just spam cheap militia stacks? Cheating isn't a solution for me since then it wouldnt be a challenge. Thanks in advance

greetings,

[nibelungvalesti]

late or early campaign?

[Dr. Freeman]

Ah sorry, that would be the late campaign.

[Andytheplatypus]

Ah sorry, that would be the late campaign.

Your pretty much ed. That is one of the hardest campaigns in the game. Somewhere around here someone posted how they beat the mongols on late campaign in only a couple of turns with the help of jihads. Either try and find that or migrate your whole empire somewhere else. Its definetly possible, just very difficult.

[Dr. Freeman]

Your pretty much ed. That is one of the hardest campaigns in the game. Somewhere around here someone posted how they beat the mongols on late campaign in only a couple of turns with the help of jihads. Either try and find that or migrate your whole empire somewhere else. Its definetly possible, just very difficult.

Ah the jihad is a good one indeed I will try that. I also could use the help of stakes if I'm actually going for the seige battles since their cavalry are like tanks. Do the Kwarezmians have any archers able to lay stakes?

[Andytheplatypus]

Ah the jihad is a good one indeed I will try that. I also could use the help of stakes if I'm actually going for the seige battles since their cavalry are like tanks. Do the Kwarezmians have any archers able to lay stakes?

Stakes is a bit of an exploit against the ai since they will usually just charge right into it, not very realistic.

But it is a good option when trying to beat mongols. Not sure if the Kwarezmian have any stake units though, check the custom battle screen and see.

Just try and hold them at choke points and settlements. Also, mangonel (if they can build them) will be very helpful.

[David93]

Ah the jihad is a good one indeed I will try that. I also could use the help of stakes if I'm actually going for the seige battles since their cavalry are like tanks. Do the Kwarezmians have any archers able to lay stakes?

No

Your pretty much ed. That is one of the hardest campaigns in the game. Somewhere around here someone posted how they beat the mongols on late campaign in only a couple of turns with the help of jihads. Either try and find that or migrate your whole empire somewhere else. Its definetly possible, just very difficult.

[QUOTE]

Kwaz late era, VH/VH
BGR 2
Gracul A.i.
Permanent watchtowers

Ok turn 1 called a jihad on the mongols and put every region into unit production overdrive and moved anything that could hold a weapon to the front line. The mongols siege my two closest cities with two stacks a piece. The jihad allows me to move 3 full stacks of men to defend the first one. Its not enough, they utterly destroy all 3 stacks but lose just over half their men in the process. Taking my city but at least they payed for it.
The second city they siege has no reinforcements. I sally out with the objective of destroying their trebs, i succeed, quite a win IMO.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The next turn they siege the city, without their trebs im able to hold them back until the timer expires, i take far more losses, but keep my city.

The Egyptians and turks arrive on scene and help whittle down their armies.
I keep up my constant peace of recruiting everything and any thing and through sheer force of numbers i retake my city.
I siege the mongols urgench, but lose three full stacks in the attempt. I get a spy inside their city and the gates open, i take urgench and the mongols die.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ive never lost so many men conquering one nation before, all in all i think i lost 25,000 men not including the other muslim states on jihad.
Probably the hardest 6 turns ive ever done lol

Now its turn 23 and im allied with the turks, they captured bagdad and i mopped up any other rebel settlements nearby, a jihad was called on CS, the cities i captured i traded to the turks for Bagdad and mosul. The cumans look like they are going to attack, i'll retaliate when they do but im in no real danger of losing now.

Thats what i did, its from a previous thread

[nivnasi112]

I had playing as the Cuman Khante in the late campaign and find out that the best solution is not to fight them I make with them peace, I guss that if they dont agree give them some city of your's.
I think that is the best solution ad least as I can see it

[Dr. Freeman]

Thank you for replying, but I'm actually looking for some tips on the actual fighting against the mongols. I will have to fight them eventually if I want to expand.

[Ichon]

Late campaign K-Shah is very hard... your empire isn't developed very much yet and its spread out so getting the armies north to defend without going into the red is almost impossible. You have to capture regions to the west as quickly as possible. I generally sent 2 generals west and then formed the rest of the generals into 2 armies with some HA and as many heavy cavalry as can afford. In battles wait behind hills or building etc until the Mongols get close and then charge. You can win in melee but if you give them time to flank and fire off arrows the battle is usually over unless you have thousands of militia to absorb the arrows which you can't afford to do in repeated battles. Jihad is useful as well once they capture a few of your cities. Even if you aren't trying to kill the horde first few turns getting 4-6 armies of other factions to fight them gives you some small breathing room each time Jihad is called. Winning a few field battles and then picking good choke point cities to use as defensive shield is the only way I think you can pull it off without a full migration. I think late campaign Cumans is actually the hardest campaign but K-Shah is close 2nd since neither have much time to prepare. Just that Cumans are even more poor and spread out and have less defensive terrains.

[yxele]

I have played several late era campaigns as the Kwarezmians on vh/vh and it's very hard to fend off the mongols.


I seldom fight open field battles against the mongols. I tend to try to defend some strongholds. Key cities are Alamut (build ballista towers), Kermanshah and if possible Shiraz. Also take and hold Baghad (build ballista towers), and take Sharjah and the other city on the east coast of the Arabian peninsula - they will provide valuable income. You can also make a stand i Damghan, but it will eventually fall.


When defending a city I usually go for spearmen at the gate and javelins behind them to hit their cavalry once the enter the gate, and infantry and archers on the walls, and some Kwarezmian noblemen to charge at their siege machines. Also a mangonel or trebuchet can also come in handy.


The other cities are doomed, and I only keep one unit in them. When the mongols lay siege on them, I sell all my city improvements for cash.


The mongols tend to use a lot of assassins, so have some in hand to counter them and to hit at their generals.


Call a jihad an one of the mongol cities. This will bring in other muslim troops to aid you in your fight.

good luck.

[Dr. Freeman]

But in 6.4 the horde will rather go south to the kwarezmians then into the terrain of the cumans. They aren't at war with eachother either so wouldn't the cumans have a much easier campaign?

[Ichon]

But in 6.4 the horde will rather go south to the kwarezmians then into the terrain of the cumans. They aren't at war with eachother either so wouldn't the cumans have a much easier campaign?

If you can get peace maybe but I've never been able to as Cumans on VH-VH though I haven't tried with more "peaceful" CAI's. Also where the Mongols send majority of stacks is a bit random... some campaigns go south, some north.

[ShadowKiller2000]

Well the Mongols are tough especially for the campaign you picked.

Stakes at the gate will work if you are desperate........

But if you are looking for real defense options here you go:

As others have said get balista towers lickety split to help in seige battles.

Trying to hold them at the gates of a city will often work when they bring 1 stack against you. As above use spears to pin them at the gate and fire javelins, and fire arrows into the massed army to rout units.

Now if you are trying to hold a city vs multiple stacks.........hold the center square. Keep spears at all the street entrances to avoid getting flanked. And keep mangonels ready to go. Fire at the Mongols when they are packed into the streets and it will kill hundreds at a time on a good shot.

Holding larger castles is easier, but then again it does not sound like you start developed enough to have those settlements to defend.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

Here's what you should do:

1) From turn one, upgrade the towers on your eastern-most settlements.
2) Convert the eastern-most settlements into castles.
3) Never fight against the Mongols in the open - always lure them into siege battles and inflict heavy casualties upon them even if you're losing.
4) It's a long-term effort - you erode the Mongols bit by bit, you cannot destroy them altogether at once.
5) By the time you're done with them, slowly but surely, you'll have to start dealing with "an even greater threat from the east!".

[Gogolometro]

My suggestions, even if come from byzantine and turkish campaign can be something worthy.

I will talk about my turkish late campaign. I got mongols at gate of Tbilisi at turn 22. It was unespected, I was not prepared. I faced 22 sieges there. I lost Tbilisi once and recaptured, I won in open field battle.

So in turn 22 mongols lay a very surprising siege at Tbilisi. Castle, without balista towers, garison was just turkish archers and javelins, some fari and spahi cavalry, some saracen and spear militia, no general.

First mongol siege was just heavy cavalry/infantry and the ussual rain of arrows. I defend wall with turkish archers and I think 1 mercenary armenian infantry.

At gate I have it maybe 3-4 spear and saracen militia. I was pretty sure I will die very soon. Inspiration force me to put javelins behind spears but not fire at will. Same at archers.

Turghaut climb on walls and the tactic was most of it, turkish archers firing at point blank fire arrows, and armenian infantry moving from hot points to charge from behind and brake them.

In this time mongols fire millions of arrows.

Finnaly the gate brake and cavalry charge in. I move one spear unit into gate to keep cavalry few seconds more there. Eventually all heavy cavalry enter than I fired javelins on them. Than fire the arrows from archers who remain. Press spears to charge. Send fari to shoot too from main street.

Of course the units from gate was destroied more than a half.
I send a desperate charge with spahis to kill the foot archers of mongols.
I lost 90% of spahis in that way very fast. All units go to center square. regruping and climbing near wall some archer remnants. Fari fire all their arrows than I send them to charge.

The final battle at center square was bloody and used all time retreat from charge infantry, countercharge, send 2-3 horses to make some damage. I won. Surprising. Loss was 75% for me, 85% for mongols.

I was happy because I can retrain some.

I start a program of reinforcing units sended from anywere.

Next to sieges I won on same scenario. The 3th one was just pure luck and ispiration to not retrain fari, but recruit a catapult. never underestimate a catapult.

Of course i lost because their trebuchets, generals, and my small garison was jsut not enough versus 2 stacks. But I make them to pay for that. A lot.

I already come with a stack there. I saw I have a lot of geography anvantage there.

And i won in open field thanks to fari, turkomans, 4 catapult units, 1 ottoman infantry, many, many turkish and javelin archers. plus 2 units of persian heavy cavalry mercenaries.

I was at high ground, them in valley, I concetrate fire, I charge without mercy, I let the trebuchets last unit to kill. Of course I lose a lot of units.

Than the mongols make a mistake let Tbilisi only with general, sending army to city of the Black Sea.

Than scenario repeat a lot, just me having all time reinforcements send there.

I beat 22 stacks, I learn to defend and I realise the stakes are not necesary to defend a simple stone castle.

[Dr. Freeman]

Thanks for the replies, gratz on the victory over the mongols, but I have one question: what units did you recruit in those 6 turns david93? I recruited the persian spearmen and otherwise the best units I could get. also how did you manage to create atleast 4 stacks within 6 turns? seems quite impossible to me.

[David93]

Thanks for the replies, gratz on the victory over the mongols, but I have one question: what units did you recruit in those 6 turns david93? I recruited the persian spearmen and otherwise the best units I could get. also how did you manage to create atleast 4 stacks within 6 turns? seems quite impossible to me.

You start with two good ones IIRC one in the capital and one in the bushes in range of the mongols. I had every general with more than 8 units join a crusade and i emptied every city to do it as soon as he had 8 units he joined and headed for the front line. I recruited everything! persian spearmen take to long to replenish so absolutely anything. (i didnt say they were good stacks lol) I also built nothing and destroyed any siege/balista/catapult makers. It wasnt that hard to get that many, you have loads of cites all capable of recruiting something. As i said before as soon as they can join the jihad and to the front line. Remember anything on jihad is free so you can continuously pump out troops with pretty much no upkeep. Also any mercs you can get as well.
Ops wait i did create things like barracks (but only a few in key places).

P.s you have to kill them before the start taking cuman cities or your ed

[Dr. Freeman]

You start with two good ones IIRC one in the capital and one in the bushes in range of the mongols. I had every general with more than 8 units join a crusade and i emptied every city to do it as soon as he had 8 units he joined and headed for the front line. I recruited everything! persian spearmen take to long to replenish so absolutely anything. (i didnt say they were good stacks lol) I also built nothing and destroyed any siege/balista/catapult makers. It wasnt that hard to get that many, you have loads of cites all capable of recruiting something. As i said before as soon as they can join the jihad and to the front line. Remember anything on jihad is free so you can continuously pump out troops with pretty much no upkeep. Also any mercs you can get as well.
Ops wait i did create things like barracks (but only a few in key places).

P.s you have to kill them before the start taking cuman cities or your ed

I've just been moving around with units and found it very annoying that in the second turn when i added newly recruited soldiers to a stack which is already on jihad they wouldnt be on jihad and thus slow the stack down (lack of 200% movement points when on jihad). Is there a way to get them jihading? gathering another 8 units would take to long for the stack to get to the frontier.

[Angrychris]

Have to run from them and have your army's form south while they take your northern provinces (for kwaz). Have them siege and plug the gates with shciltrom units and keep the walls safe. I found that if you fight at the gate while countering them from behind with horse archers is very affective (use gate to bottle neck). splitting the army borks the ai and causes it to spazz out.