Religion in BC 2.3 and beyond

[Jazz19]

Hello team.

I understand that with the mod now ported to Kingdoms, there are now 10 religion types possible.

Original BC had:

• Islam
• Orthodox Christianity
• Catholic Christianity
• Hindu
• Pagan
• Heretic

Are there plans to increase this now that it is possible?

Are there going to be any Shia Islam factions (I think I read somewhere that the Malikate of Mazandaran were Shia followers, but I could be wrong...)

Any thoughts on adding a third Christian religion, Monophysitism centered in Armenia? It would make absorption by the Roman Empire (and other Orthodox factions) more difficult while maintaining them as Christians. Conqueror would have to think about exterminating population, or invest in church infrastructure to try and convert them with priests etc...

Does Kingdoms allow use of religion specific Heretics & Witches? (ie, could there be a Muslim heretic that reduces the Islamic population but has little (or no) effect on other religions in that settlement?)

Apologies if this has been brought up before. Also, if the mods think this belongs in the main BC 3.0 thread, please merge this in there.

Thanks.

[cenkiss]

Shia will be much more useful than catholic because that time was peak of shia-sunni conflict.Which was more important than crusades most of the time.

[wudang_clown]

Right.

We certainly won't add any more Christian branches. If anything, we will merge Orthodox and Catholic in Christian religion. The reason for this is that there is only one Catholic faction in the mod, while there are much more Shia and Sunna factions which in BC share the same religion. Plus, Oman and Yemen could easily have a separate religions.

[Dago Red]

If anything, we will merge Orthodox and Catholic in Christian religion.

You jest, I know you do. That would be a travesty with no benefit to gameplay (not to mention historical accuracy). This was a time of great religious fracture for Islam, and a great coming to together for Christianity, it's true.

But the rift between the western Christians and the Eastern Christians should not be underestimated. Remember, though there are many complicated reasons for why tens of thousands upon thousands of "good Christians" up and left their varied homes in Europe to go and slaughter non-believers in the east, there was one man who told them to do it.

The question of how the Pope could have so much influence over so many different people who spoke so many different languages, and got them to all stop fighting and rally under one Christian banner, I will not attempt to answer.

But why he did it.... well that was to assert the power of the Papacy in Rome (France at the time really), assert the power of the Western Christian faith. It was a power play, and they had no intention of delivering any of those cities back to the Orthodox Christians.

(aren't there 2 catholic factions? Makuria and the KoJ?)

[saglam2000]

Makuria is orthodox, if only the game could support culture and religion at the same time, then AORs could be dynamic

[Menelik_I]

Makuria is orthodox, if only the game could support culture and religion at the same time, then AORs could be dynamic

Don't Third Age Total War have have dynamic AOR between the different cultures.

Maybe there should be core AOR and secondary AOR due to culture.

[wudang_clown]

All right, here are two lists of religions we have compiled so far:

1. Sunna
2. Ibadiyya
3. Shia
4. Catholic Church
5. Hinduism
6. Buddhism
7. Tengrism
8. Eastern Orthodox
9. Oriental Orthodox
10. Heretics (generic for Rebels)

1. Ismailiyya
2. Zaydiyya
3. Sunna
4. Catholic Church
5. Hinduism
6. Buddhism
7. Tengrism
8. Eastern Orthodox
9. Oriental Orthodox
10. Heretics (generic for Rebels)

What do you think?

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

All right, here are two lists of religions we have compiled so far:

1. Sunna
2. Ibadiyya
3. Shia
4. Catholic Church
5. Hinduism
6. Buddhism
7. Tengrism
8. Eastern Orthodox
9. Oriental Orthodox
10. Heretics (generic for Rebels)

1. Ismailiyya
2. Zaydiyya
3. Sunna
4. Catholic Church
5. Hinduism
6. Buddhism
7. Tengrism
8. Eastern Orthodox
9. Oriental Orthodox
10. Heretics (generic for Rebels)

What do you think?

List # 1

[saglam2000]

Basically comes down to how to split islam.. i think i like list 1 better

[megalitho]

Basically comes down to how to split islam..

That is the meaning of "Broken Crescent".

To the lists: I am sure, that the team will find the best solution for that topic.

[Dago Red]

Since I don't know what some of the ones in the second list are, and I can't be the only one, I'd go for the first as well. Sunni and Shia are eaisly identified, and IMO that's the most important aspect of religion that is due for 3.0. and player enjoyment/gameplay depth.

No Zoroastrian hold outs?

[sumskilz]

Makuria is orthodox, if only the game could support culture and religion at the same time, then AORs could be dynamic

Makuria was Oriental Orthodox (Non-Chalcedonian) - a category which includes the Coptic Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, and Armenian Apostolic Churches who are all in communion with each other but not with the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Since I don't know what some of the ones in the second list are, and I can't be the only one, I'd go for the first as well. Sunni and Shia are eaisly identified, and IMO that's the most important aspect of religion that is due for 3.0. and player enjoyment/gameplay depth.

Well if you don't know what they are, they must not be important right?

Zaydi Islam and Isma'ili Islam are two forms of Shi'sim. There was no major Isma'ili state during BC's timeframe, but it was the religion of the assassins so it could be used to represent the trouble they stirred up. They had a network of travelling missionaries that went around converting other Muslims to their cause.

No Zoroastrian hold outs?

It was demographically almost irrelevant by BC's time. Judaism would make more sense for a non-factional religion.

[Dago Red]

Well if you don't know what they are, they must not be important right?

Exactly!

In all seriousness though, I think you get my point... which is that focusing on the key aspects, that people have at least some familiarity with, is maybe more important than incorporating every obscure detail. If there is room, and it makes gameplay sense, then by all means work in every detail.

Everyone knows about the shia/sunni rift (even if they don't know why or how). That's something we can identify and relate to, then explore and learn about in the game. It gives the game more depth and improves the game. Are these more obscure factions worth including or would they just cloud the key aspect, which is the Sunni/Shia rift ? You know what this member thinks on that, now.

Zaydi Islam and Isma'ili Islam are two forms of Shi'sim. There was no major Isma'ili state during BC's timeframe, but it was the religion of the assassins so it could be used to represent the trouble they stirred up. They had a network of travelling missionaries that went around converting other Muslims to their cause.

It was demographically almost irrelevant by BC's time. Judaism would make more sense for a non-factional religion.

That is indeed interesting though, and I like the idea of Isma'ili affecting some hashishin shady business. I agree, Judaism should be included as a religion if possible too. Judaism is also in India, stretching back to antiquity so it may even be possible to use it for "rebels" in the far east... something to look into, i'm not sure where it took root in this time frame.

[wudang_clown]

In all seriousness though, I think you get my point... which is that focusing on the key aspects, that people have at least some familiarity with, is maybe more important than incorporating every obscure detail.

This is only a matter of information presented in form of preview, with justification of why we think a feature should be included. That's what teams do to unveil the obscure.

[tbain5]

Makuria was Oriental Orthodox (Non-Chalcedonian) - a category which includes the Coptic Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, and Armenian Apostolic Churches who are all in communion with each other but not with the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
Well if you don't know what they are, they must not be important right?

Zaydi Islam and Isma'ili Islam are two forms of Shi'sim. There was no major Isma'ili state during BC's timeframe, but it was the religion of the assassins so it could be used to represent the trouble they stirred up. They had a network of travelling missionaries that went around converting other Muslims to their cause.

It was demographically almost irrelevant by BC's time. Judaism would make more sense for a non-factional religion.

So the Christian factions would be split up this way then?

• Catholic
  
  • Kingdom of Jerusalem
  
  
• Eastern Orthodox
  
  • Roman Empire
  • Georgia
  • Alania
  • Vladimir-Suzdal
  
  
• Oriental Orthodox
  
  • Armenia
  • Makuria
  • Ethiopia
  
  

Also, which factions would follow Buddhism and Tengrism (Kypchaks? & Kara Kithan?)?

[megalitho]

Just for curiosity: Would the sharia be an interesting addition for muslim factions? I mean espacially the role of "Dhimmi". If a muslim faction captures a city and builds something like a "sharia judge", a "sharia court" or a "sharia administration", this building could reduce religious riots, affect the conversation rate and increase taxes depending on the amount of christs/jews/hindus(?) in the population. It can also have an effect on characteristics of the governors/royal family.

By the way: in this context the judaism would make sence as a game element.

[Ibn Al-Quds]

The first list makes much more sense.

By the way: in this context the judaism would make sence as a game element.

Agreed.

[Menelik_I]

Just for curiosity: Would the sharia be an interesting addition for muslim factions? I mean espacially the role of "Dhimmi". If a muslim faction captures a city and builds something like a "sharia judge", a "sharia court" or a "sharia administration", this building could reduce religious riots, affect the conversation rate and increase taxes depending on the amount of christs/jews/hindus(?) in the population. It can also have an effect on characteristics of the governors/royal family.

By the way: in this context the judaism would make sence as a game element.

RTR have some ''occupation'' options which effect a settlement, maybe Muslim faction could choose between making local population Dhimmis or converting them. Dhimming the population would have high taxes but riots and converting will get low taxes.

ETA:

In RTR FOE you have various ways in which you can administer a resently conquered city, so it would be cool to integrat this feature with BC religion.

For Example submit city of the Indus valley and force citizens into Dhimmis to collect taxes, or force them convert and burn their altar and pagan gods.

[kepper]

RTR have some ''occupation'' options which effect a settlement, maybe Muslim faction could choose between making local population Dhimmis or converting them. Dhimming the population would have high taxes but riots and converting will get low taxes.

ETA:

In RTR FOE and you have various ways in which you can administer a resently conquered city, so it would be cool to integrat this feature with BC religion.

For Example submit city of the Indus valley and force citizens into Dhimmis to collect taxes, or force them convert and burn their altar and pagan gods.

In RTR FOE and RTR VII, after the player(AI) conquer a new city is most build the govt tree, to recruit troops in the new cite.
The first one is all ways Occupation, since are taking over of new region.
After it depend of the H_R of the region and faction you playing.

[Byzantineboy]

Hi all!

I think that split the christians factions in BC is not the most relevant.
I love the concept of jewish and zoroastrian minorities

1/Sunna
2/Ibadiyya
3/Shia
4/Christianism
5/Hinduism
6/Buddhism
7/Tengrism
8/Zoroastrism
9/Judaism
10/Heretics (generic for Rebels)