Turks and Egypt

[saglam2000]

Seems like they're underpowered in 2.3, turks are a speed bump for the ERE truck and KOJ has no problem turning Mecca and Cairo into Christian cities.

Anyone else agree?

[Humakty]

Availabilty of heavy melee/mounted units is awesome for KoJ in early game. Ayyubids empire in arabia seems to cripple them a bit, in my current omani game they've got a whole army there to squash rebellions, while all KoJ forces are concentrated in a given region, Holy lands being a place were cities are very close to each other.

[SoulBlade]

I still haven't played a long campaign in BC 2.3. But in the previous version Ayyubids were conquering everything in their way and Romans were very underpowered.

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

I think this will be sorted when the Zengids in Syria are added in later versions (3.0?) Historically at the mod's start I think Salah ad-Din was technically under Zengid suzerainty so I like the accurate starts. Maybe bigger rebel stacks in the main cities of Syria would help to slow down KoJ advance...because I agree, it's strange to see KoJ take the whole of the Levant

[terrorist]

I think they have created a proto 3.0 with the faction placement... only problem is the newer factions do not exist to populate the map. It is now even MORE sparse of faction controlled regions. 90% of the time all I fight are rebels, I would have to play deep into a campaign to actually be involved in a severe inter-factional conflict (well apart from a handful of factions that are forced into it right from the get go).

without the great seljuks many factions can go on a rebel gobbling rampage

[saglam2000]

In my current game, georgia gobbled up all of western iran. Seems like this patch destroyed all the big strong factions and let the little factions they used to "hold" in place become massive superpowers. When KOJ takes all of palestine, syria and western arabia there's an issue.

[steaky whizzletooth]

in my opinion, more and stronger rebels make more sense. not every inch of map should be controlled by a faction, and on the starting positions , every faction has advantages and disadvantages in its starting point. example, in 2.02 - ayyubid were unstoppable force -ONLY if you didnt war with them @ the very start. ~~~~~~ my advice is to keep your enimies in check by destroying them immidiatly,~~~ the longer you wait to gather force, the AI gather 3x the force, conquering more rebels and so fouth......

[saglam2000]

Rebels aren't even that strong, the AI spam stacks men until the settlement falls regardless of money loss due to the insane money script. The only way i can see balancing the ayyubids is instead of nerfing them make KOJ strong (giving koj antioch and a larger kings purse could offset the ayyubids). And the AI money script should be reduced for a faction the more settlements that faction has has (unless there is already a mechanic like this and i'm not aware of it)

[wudang_clown]

saglam2000, how many campaigns have you actually played? Because I'd say you are wrong.

Firstly, how can you say that "all the big strong factions" have been destroyed? Take a look here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...75#post9500275 and here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...30#post9502630. Where do you actually see the problem? That KoJ expands in non-accurate way?

Well, we can try to set things as accurately as it is possible in M2TW, but after that it's just a game. From your perspective - should we disallow somehow KoJ players to expand with that faction, because it's not accurate to expand with KoJ beyond the Holy Land?

About rebels, yes, there are more rebel regions mostly because of taking most of the Great Seljuks' possessions. On the other hand, some factions have received more regions. You can see how things actually look like around turn 50 on one of linked screenshots. 50 turns, that is year 1199, so not that far into the game. What's the actual problem, then?

I've performed two dozen of tests lasting 80-100 turns. It is very rare within such period for a faction to be destroyed. I've seen two or three cases, not more.

Scripts are not insane. Scripts are the same, but buildings costs are much higher, so the saldo is not that advantageous for AI. On the other hand, there are hidden traits with quite big bonuses for AI, but I'm not sure of their exact impact on the saldo.

Of course, some factions would not expand quickly if they had neighbours. You are right on this. But for now we can't provide any new factions, so it stays as it is. We will add factions before 3.0 release, but it's not that bad now. Every starting position has its advantages and disadvantages, and it depends on player's to see both features, not only one.

[saglam2000]

I've played at least 10 campaigns, but not for too long due to really weird AI expansion in all my campaigns, i get up to at least turn 40 and KOJ has all of levent/syria and just slowly eats away at the ayyubids. Georgia managed to be my only neighbors in my abbassid campaign. In all my games the ERE practically reconquers anatolia within 40 turns. I just don't like it when the AI factions can't hold each other off, i guess that's personal preference though. I'll play some more quick 40-50 game campaigns to get some more accurate ideas on how this plays out.

[Dago Red]

Sounds like the KoJ may be in a little too advantageous of a position. But before the AI was wiping them off the map early and way too often.

I've played at least 10 campaigns, but not for too long due to really weird AI expansion in all my campaigns, i get up to at least turn 40 and KOJ ..... Georgia managed to be my only neighbors ..... In all my games the ERE practically reconquers anatolia within 40 turns. I just don't like it when the AI factions can't hold each other off, ....

Still, there seems a bias in your reports, are you sure you're not just seeing some factions win over others normally? You only mention 3 factions doing too well in the game, that are all Christian. It seems to me that the ERE should rightly beat back the Turks at least half the time. Ideally, if I were to script a game I would give the edge to the ERE until a certain Ottoman upheaval and turn the tables, but the game doesn't last that long.

Without the Seljuks owning half the map, it makes sense that Georgia would be able to expand east and south where before they could not.

AS for the KoJ, they are not a fully functional faction in my opinion. They have no money, their backbone swordsman unit is broken (losing 10 out of 10 match ups against inferior troops armed with wooden clubs), and they cannot recruit some of their best mid/late game knights. It's a miracle they are lasting past 40 turns, so I can't wait to see why.

[wudang_clown]

Yes, please, do play more. It would be good if you could provide screenshots of situation on each 50 turn or later.

[saglam2000]

I understand the ERE should beat back and hold off the turks until they get the ottoman troops, it just bothers me when all of anatolia is ERE controlled by turn 40ish except for the 2 vassal provinces owned by armenia and rum turks. It should be more or less a stalemate within anatolia, favoring ERE until the ottoman units arrive.

On georgia's case, they turn into what the great seljuks where. A massive superstate sitting in the middle of the map. I support the "cutting down to size" of the seljuks but if they were more equal in amount of provinces to georgia the two factions could have an more or less equal interfactional war over land instead of georgia quickly taking most of iran/western anatolia and then vassaling the turks in 7 turns

When i played 2.02 koj was gone within 20 turns, i thought that was way too fast. Now they just get big because they have no real threat to their lands. They take damascus, aleppo and all those nice big cities and castles and have a small, easy to defend empire with a ton of highly developed areas to support their armies. Oh and 2.03 fixed the outremer knights recruitment, not sure about the swordsmen sucking thing though.

This also plays into how the game handles autocalculate battles, ERE, KOJ and Georgian heavy infantry and heavy cavalry generally are worth more in autocalculate compared to the turks/ayyubids light infantry and horse archers and all 3 of the christian factions have a lot of heavies and the muslims dont

[Dago Red]

Oh and 2.03 fixed the outremer knights recruitment, not sure about the swordsmen sucking thing though.

They fixed recruitment, NICE! Still roster issues and others missing, but if the knights of Outremer are in play then at least there will be a solid knightly unit without logistics problems to wage campaigns. That's awesome, i'm going to play them next for sure and check it out.

[saglam2000]

Well it's turn 42, i was using my submod where i gave the Seljuks of iraq the city of rayy and i gave the ayyubids damascus and homs. Egypt didn't rush KOJ and they're surviving, jerusalem was taken about 10 years later than it historically happened so i guess the wars in the holy land are following its proper course.

As for the Seljuks, georgia completely wiped them clean. I'm going to play around by giving them a castle added to their starting position and see if that helps them out.

The ERE punched a hole right through armenia and is currently re-acquiring syria, already took antioch and aleppo. They also decided eastern anatolia was up for grabs and took that as well. armenia relocated a bit north of their starting position and the Rum turks stole the two rebel provinces near konya at the campaign start the ERE city of nicomedia rebelled and they took it as well. But the ERE took amasia when it rebelled, no wars yet.

The ghurids are getting massive too, but it doesn't concern me since the khan will destroy any notion of them having an empire anyway.

[nurhak]

wow after a few turns armenia and romans attack together with full stack armies :S playing on easy right now

[saglam2000]

In the campaign your natural enemies gain full stacks of elite units (1-2) in an effort to balance the playing field

[removeduser_3847562873423]

In my campaigns if KOJ conquers Antioch they are unstoppable, they even conquered Baghdad once If Armenia takes Antioch then KOJ are fine 50/50 against ayyubid.

[Filips Augustus]

i think that KOJ in BC is a "what if" faction . What if Baldwin never died of leper (he gets 60 years old in BC), or what if the battle of Hattin never took place (it surely didnt take place in BC).

[trollface]

the ERE are the new turks, they can mass produce horse archers like no-ones business... as well as excellent spearmen, axemen and solid medium swordsmen. Oh and those crappy pikemen

>The ghurids are getting massive too, but it doesn't concern me since the khan will destroy any notion of them having an empire anyway

better hope so, ghurids often become no.1 faction now. Beware the red peril