Celebrating a killing

[Jack04]

Watching and listening the reports after the killing of Osama bin Laden, I simply cannot understand the mindset that allows one to celebrate the killing of another human, however well justified their execution may have been. I can understand feelings of relief and even those of satisfaction but to me the celebrations of a killing feel vulgar and bordering on the barbaric.

So yes, can the celebration of the taking of a life ever be morally justified and/or is it a sign of something amoral and almost primeval in the human psyche?

[SigniferOne]

What's immoral about celebrating justice being done?

[Jack04]

What's immoral about celebrating justice being done?

Because to me it implies the devaluing of justice into just another form of vengeance. I would not argue that this is not what he deserved, just that the celebration of the taking of a life (above and beyond the acceptance that it was suitable justice) is vulgar and amoral.

If you don't celebrate his death you're implying it would be better for him to be alive.

Granted it would be better for him to be alive and not a bastard, but he is one and there's nothing else to be done.

Not at all. I can accept that he deserved his fate without dancing in the streets about it. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Because to me it implies the devaluing of justice into just another form of vengeance. I would not argue that this is not what he deserved, just that the celebration of the taking of a life (above and beyond the acceptance that it was suitable justice) is vulgar and amoral.



Not at all. I can accept that he deserved his fate without dancing in the streets about it. The two are not mutually exclusive.

When Justice has been evaded for so long it's a reason to celebrate. Why would it be less "vulgar" to celebrate his life imprisonment?

And it's not revenge. Killing him is a purely preventative measure, although no doubt more will take his place.

[Jack04]

When Justice has been evaded for so long it's a reason to celebrate. Why would it be less "vulgar" to celebrate his life imprisonment?

I see what you mean, but I suspect there would be no meaningful celebration (certainly not on the same scale) of such a punishment.

And it's not revenge. Killing him is a purely preventative measure, although no doubt more will take his place.

That'd be getting away from the intended object of the thread but as far as I can tell, this has never been a preventative hunt.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

That'd be getting away from the intended object of the thread but as far as I can tell, this has never been a preventative hunt.

Really? And if the USA just let him get away with it what mesage would that give to future terrorists?

The fact they spent thousands of lives, billions of dollars and an entire decade just to hunt him down shows that you cannot get away with attacking the USA, and that will make others think twice.

It also prevents him influencing any more attacks. He was very charismatic and a good recruiter.

[Lord Rahl]

Because to me it implies the devaluing of justice into just another form of vengeance.

Let's be honest. It was justice and vengeance. What's so bad about vengeance? I don't really wish to bring this up as an example, but my uncle and his father were murdered for no reason. I wanted that bastard to be executed and he was. Was it justice? Yes, the judicial system is supposed to be impartial. Was it also vengeance in a way? I guess. It was personal.

Osama's attack on the US was very personal to US citizens. When it's personal is when justice becomes vengeance. Compared to my uncle's killer, Osama is a bastard the nth degree.

Besides, people who say Americans are celebrating only Osama's death aren't considering the whole picture. Osama's death has been the catalyst for a resurgence and celebration of American unity. If it was all about vengeance then why so much outright enthusiasm for being American?

[Tuor]

I was actually contemplating the same thing last night, Jack. I came to the conclusion that the literal taking of his life isn't what's being celebrated (at least I hope); rather, everyone is celebrating the death symbolically, as the first cataclysmic step in the crumbling of Al-Qaeda and for the previously unclaimed justice for 9/11. I actually think it's a sad thing that the man had to die, or that anyone has to die, but I agree that it is necessary sometimes.

[Jack04]

Let's be honest. It was justice and vengeance. What's so bad about vengeance? I don't really wish to bring this up as an example, but my uncle and his father were murdered for no reason. I wanted that bastard to be executed and he was. Was it justice? Yes, the judicial system is supposed to be impartial. Was it also vengeance in a way? I guess. It was personal.

Osama's attack on the US was very personal to US citizens. When it's personal is when justice becomes vengeance. Compared to my uncle's killer, Osama is a bastard the nth degree.

Besides, people who say Americans are celebrating only Osama's death aren't considering the whole picture. Osama's death has been the catalyst for a resurgence and celebration of American unity. If it was all about vengeance then why so much outright enthusiasm for being American?

I'm happy to admit that as a non-American I only really see the images that are broadcast over here, so I cannot really comment on your last paragraph.

As for the rest of your comment, I suppose this is really my question. I'm not necessarily criticising the reaction, I'm just saying that I cannot understand it. I've never been in a position such as yours (and am loathe to comment on something I have so little knowledge of) but could not imagine myself celebrating if I were, as I said, I can imagine both being hugely relieved and probably satisfied that justice was done but I cannot get my head around the celebrations. To me, they appear vulgar and amoral, so I'm trying to understand why this evidently isn't the case for others.

I was actually contemplating the same thing last night, Jack. I came to the conclusion that the literal taking of his life isn't what's being celebrated (at least I hope); rather, everyone is celebrating the death symbolically, as the first cataclysmic step in the crumbling of Al-Qaeda and for the previously unclaimed justice for 9/11. I actually think it's a sad thing that the man had to die, or that anyone has to die, but I agree that it is necessary sometimes.

This was a conclusion I was pondering as well.

[SigniferOne]

Because to me it implies the devaluing of justice into just another form of vengeance.

And what's wrong with that?

I would not argue that this is not what he deserved, just..

But if it's deserved, then what's the problem here?

[Jack04]

And what's wrong with that?

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and all that. Justice should never be dictated by the need for vengeance.

But if it's deserved, then what's the problem here?

A punishment can be deserved without being celebrated.

[SigniferOne]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and all that.

Ghandi was wrong. We've done pretty well with 'an eye for an eye' both before him and after him.

Justice should never be dictated by the need for vengeance.

Of course it wasn't dictated by the need for vengeance, it was accompanied by the need for vengeance. It was dictated by the absolute laws of right and wrong.

A punishment can be deserved without being celebrated.

If the wrong is large enough, its punishment can and should be celebrated, as a vindication that absolute justice still exists and rules this world.

[Apologist]

What's immoral about celebrating justice being done?

So then, when someone kills Bush for the 92,003 deaths he caused, we'll rejoice then too?

[Lord Rahl]

So then, when someone kills Bush for the 92,003 deaths he caused, we'll rejoice then too?

You can always tell when someone's new to TWC...

As Helm has stated, there is a difference between a man who intentionally targets civilians and a man who tries to avoid civilian casualties, among other things.

[Apologist]

You can always tell when someone's new to TWC...

As Helm has stated, there is a difference between a man who intentionally targets civilians and a man who tries to avoid civilian casualties, among other things.

Because Bush's invasions were completely necessary.

Osama was just an idealist who became an extremist. There's a lot of pressure on the middle east to conform to Western society, and this is ridiculous, and violates basic human rights. Sure, Osama went about it the completely wrong way and gave his people a terrible name, but boy have they been wronged by the Americans in the past, I would go so far as to childishly say "The Americans started it".

[removeduser_4536284751384]

There's a lot of pressure on the middle east to conform to Western society, and this is ridiculous, and violates basic human rights.

Er what?

[Tuor]

What's immoral about celebrating justice being done?

"Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth." -- Proverbs 24:17

[Cougar109]

Claudius Gothicus nailed the issue down very well: I don't view the celebration of taking a life as proper, I view the celebration of absolute justice as proper. The taking of life itself, properly speaking, is sad.

Celebrated justice? Thousands of lives lost and many more wounded for life, a trillion some odd dollars, a decade (15 years we've been putting pressure serious pressure on Al Quaeda), and helping to lead to situations which assisted to crippling the economy all to deliver a fate that in inevitable to all of us. To me that's an incredibly steep cost on our end to be celebrated justice. Obviously I generalized it a bit, just seems odd though that people are treating this as the ultimate goal when really it should be as insignificant as every other major figure in Al Quaeda we've killed.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

If you don't celebrate his death you're implying it would be better for him to be alive.

Granted it would be better for him to be alive and not a bastard, but he is one and there's nothing else to be done.

However I heard someone saying "I hope he rots in hell". There's nothing anybody can do to deserve eternal agony. Hitler could't deserve that. The worst child molestor couldn't deserve that.

[Vizsla]

When a State kills someone in the name of justice it’s OK.
When a private citizen kills someone in the name of justice they go to prison.
(I don’t mind that they killed him. I have an irrational hatred of people who want to kill me.)

I don’t know about immoral but it’s not entirely consistent.

Who decides what is and is not justice?