An interesting point for you to ponder about Christians.

[Apologist]

I often see Christians say "nobody created the creator". They try to say that he was just always there, but this is impossible, and he had to begin existing at some point in time. So for arguments sake, if you're a christian, let us just agree that he came from nothing, alright? Just happened to appear.



If you nodded your head, then thank you. Because that means you can now agree that the big bang was possible. While if you seriously believe the big bang came from nothing, your conceptions about the topic are misguided and incorrect, you can at least somewhat grasp the concept.

Funny, it's fine for something to just happen to pop into existence when it has to do with Christianity, but when it's to do with science it's outlandish.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

I'm not religious, but I don't believe that it is impossible for something to be eternal. I'm sure if a sentient being is eternal, it's head would metaphoricaly explode and it would go crazy. This fits the jealous, genocidal and vengeful personality of the Christian god.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

every single belief must face that conundorum, including people who think there is nothing.

And there isn't a single sane scientist in the world who would claim anything about the origins of the universe, other than it began with the big bang. Why do you think it came from nowhere? We have absoluely no evidence. It could have been the Christian God for all we know. It could have been any of an infinite number of possibilities. We have no evidence for any conclusion.

Although I would like to ask why you think observations of natural things inside the universe (effects must have causes) apply to supernatural things not of the universe?

[Helm]

but this is impossible.

Says who?

[Apologist]

Says who?

Says any logic.

[Helm]

Says any logic.

The nature of reality having an eternally existing component is logical enough. This component impregnating a young virgin Jewish girl with itself in human form before sacrificing itself for the sins of humanity is not so logical though. But if God logically can exist then yes he could pull a stunt like that if he wanted to. If Christianity had been based purely on alleged historical events with no logical element behind it whatsoever then it really would be utterly ridiculous, rather than just slightly silly.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Says any logic.

and you have hubris enough to attempt to apply current logic to things not part of this universe?

[Taiji]

Says any logic.

It seems illogical to subject the creator of the subject human logic concerns itself with to a logical analysis.

[Sadreddine]

Says any logic.

Do you even know who Aristotle was, generally regarded as the 'father of logic'?

Are you familiar with his metaphisics? The First Cause rings a bell?

Or are you just stating your ignorance as fact?

[Invictus XII]

Says any logic.

Any logic only applies to things within our grasp, within our lives

Its not impossible for God to have never been created, for him to be eternal, but as athiests, you cannot understand the grasp of eternal.

[boofhead]

I often see Christians say "nobody created the creator". They try to say that he was just always there, but this is impossible, and he had to begin existing at some point in time. So for arguments sake, if you're a christian, let us just agree that he came from nothing, alright? Just happened to appear.



If you nodded your head, then thank you. Because that means you can now agree that the big bang was possible. While if you seriously believe the big bang came from nothing, your conceptions about the topic are misguided and incorrect, you can at least somewhat grasp the concept.

Funny, it's fine for something to just happen to pop into existence when it has to do with Christianity, but when it's to do with science it's outlandish.

Garbled nonsense.

God didn't come into existence, because He is outside of time. Before the universe was created, there was no time, because there was no matter and no change. So prior to the Big Bang, nothing was created, there was only the Eternal. So God wasn't created.

Secondly, most Christians accept the idea of the Big Bang, it's the literalist fundies who don't, and they're a minority.

There are Christian astrophysicists with more knowledge of the subject than you, or me.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

All this seems to be assuming that the universe had a starting point. There's always a possibility that the big bang was just a rapid expansion i.e. big bounce.

[In3x]

Garbled nonsense.

God didn't come into existence, because He is outside of time. Before the universe was created, there was no time, because there was no matter and no change. So prior to the Big Bang, nothing was created, there was only the Eternal. So God wasn't created.

Secondly, most Christians accept the idea of the Big Bang, it's the literalist fundies who don't, and they're a minority.

There are Christian astrophysicists with more knowledge of the subject than you, or me.

How exactly do words like prior and before work when there is no time?

[boofhead]

How exactly do words like prior and before work when there is no time?

Well, let's try ''everywhen'' shall we?

[Helm]

How exactly do words like prior and before work when there is no time?

They don't as you can't have a before time. But you can have something that exists beyond the limits of matter, energy, space and time. In fact I should think such a thing is fairly necessary. It doesn't mean going to church on a Sunday or praying five times a day to Allah is necessary, that's probably an optional extra. But I wouldn't know.

[In3x]

They don't as you can't have a before time. But you can have something that exists beyond the limits of matter, energy, space and time. In fact I should think such a thing is fairly necessary. It doesn't mean going to church on a Sunday or praying five times a day to Allah is necessary, that's probably an optional extra. But I wouldn't know.

How does something that lacks all the properties we use to determine existence actually exist?

[removeduser_4536284751384]

How does something that lacks all the properties we use to determine existence actually exist?

as it is not part of the universe it doesn't exist.

[Helm]

How does something that lacks all the properties we use to determine existence actually exist?

It is the empty space within the cup that makes the cup functional as a cup but the empty space itself isn't a part of the cup and so it lacks the properties of the cup. So you can take the universe as the cup itself and God as the functional space within the cup. Though of course space isn't confined within the cup it's a little bit more all pervasive and the empty space would still exist even if you smashed the cup.

The Taoist book I've been reading would say something like that anyway. There's some good in there tbh.

[Incesticide]

Garbled nonsense.

God didn't come into existence, because He is outside of time. Before the universe was created, there was no time, because there was no matter and no change. So prior to the Big Bang, nothing was created, there was only the Eternal. So God wasn't created.

Secondly, most Christians accept the idea of the Big Bang, it's the literalist fundies who don't, and they're a minority.

There are Christian astrophysicists with more knowledge of the subject than you, or me.

Funnily enough, despite being an atheist, I tend to find myself in agreement with Christians all too often.

I think that a telling point to most of our debates is that we are attempting to describe a very complicated process (whether it is the Big Bang, or the existance of God) using a language that was designed for telling one another when the best time to plant crops is, and using a brain that evolved to give us a useful description of our world (not necessarily a true one) - and is hence not really adapted towards abstract thought.

Surely it would be much more wise for the OP and the rest of the people posting here to admit that we do not yet know, and it would be safer to delay judgement either until further discoveries are made, or until one has an above average understanding of astrophysics and/or theology. Any person with an iota of common sense would tend to do the same.

[Helm]

There would still ideally have to be an underlying uncreated cause in itself eternal force to this big bounce or multiverse of universes or whatever else. Else you have some kind of messy infinite regression of randomly annoying stuff that can't be explained.