Multiplayer Rule Recommendations: AM & PM

[KittySN]

Hello everyone! I’ve played several hundred online battles now and there are some things that are beginning to annoy me, namely monk and matchlock spam. I know everyone is welcome to their opinion of a quality army, but I personally aim to never use more than 2 monks or matchlocks unless I’m heavily lacking in veterans. No disrespect intended, but if you can win an open land battle with such powerful missile spam, you’re just not very good at this game, and to further moan about your opponent taking refuge in woods against such an army (not playing into your strength) is positively ridiculous. I also try not to abuse units, terrain or take position near the red line. Thus I decided to take a moment and create some recommended rules for those who may be interested.

AM Rules

Antiquated Meiyo (AM)

No Artillery
No Matchlocks
No Monks
Max 6 Same Unit
Max 6 Cavalry
Max 6 Archers
Bow Cavalry = Cavalry & Archers
No Border Camping

This rule set revolves around the earlier and more common/traditional engagements that I think of when considering Japanese warfare. That means no gunpowder, no monk involvement, and somewhat balanced army compositions with an emphasis on infantry. Horses are expensive and archery is an acquired skill, but almost everyone knew basics of melee. As such, mounted archery was a specialized skill, hence their cost towards both categories.

PM Rules

Progressive Meiyo (PM)

Max 2 Matchlocks
Max 2 Monks
Max 6 Same Unit
Max 6 Cavalry
Max 6 Archers
Bow Cavalry = Cavalry & Archers
No Border Camping

This rule set reflects science and assimilation, including both gunpowder and monk mercenaries. Those who know their history are familiar with how Japan transitioned into modern warfare, and yes, I recognize that there was a period of monk warfare with famous commanders enlisting their assistance. However these resources were of lesser availability and this fact should be represented in the composition of an army.

Notes: Ninjas do not count as artillery; all others in the category do. Heroes are fine. Avatar is not included in rules.

In case you’re unfamiliar with kanji, “meiyo” is the translation of “honor,” and yes I know that “AM” and “PM” corresponds with the early and late periods of the day (I thought that would be a nice twist). Of course nobody has to play by these rules, but if you’re looking for a different kind of balance, I highly recommend them. Simply share them with your friends and see how the strategies and tactics transcend. Something else to mention: I'm considering hosting a 14k tournament using the AM rules within the next month if anyone's interested.

PS: Please provide a comment towards approval. Depending on how approving members rate, I'll spread these rules around.

[Haru]

Hmm... I couldn't agree to the AM rules, however. In regards to the PM rule settings I believe I could come to term with them. Honestly I don't spam units myself but the rules mentioned in the Am setting seems to be a bit overkill to me. Well... Border camping and Artillery shouldn't be acceptable lol, but it's whatever to me :P

[Thefallenhun]

I'm afraid I wouldn't support this. As Jimmie Durante said, "Those are the conditions that prevail". If CA wants to rebalance the game after they are done with the other more urgent fixes, sure, such is their perrogative. But I am afraid that if the game allows a tactic, I cannot in good conscience prevent anyone from using it. You can talk about historical accuracy, fun, and other players behavior, but shogun 2 isn't the kind of game you should play if you are looking for fast paced even handed multi.

It is however a fascinating game with an interesting metagame, and the most multiplayer fun I've had in years.

Still, no rules changes, do em in tournies if you feel like it.

[KittySN]

the rules mentioned in the Am setting seems to be a bit overkill to me.

That's an early set, sort of like the Polybian build would be in Rome Total War.

I am afraid that if the game allows a tactic, I cannot in good conscience prevent anyone from using it.

I don't see what your argument is. If you wish to play with no rules then simply refuse. My creation of these rules reflects the fact that as unit strengths are recognized, they will be abused. Most of us understand the power of monks and matchlocks within a fraction of the battles I've played. To reference Rome Total War again, CWB and TWPL were created for a reason. I'm trying to recommend a composition for more competitive and experienced play which includes less abuse and more skill.

[Thefallenhun]

I think you simply misunderstood. All I'm saying is that I do not see the need for such rules. You can use them, but I don't see them spreading very fast or very far.

Its frustrating yes, but I want to see what approach CA will take. If its like Starcraft, we can expect to see units periodically tweaked for more balance. They have a ton on their plate now, so units that don't represent actual bugs are not high on their list.

[KittySN]

They won't spread anywhere if I never try, and I do see the need! Once there's more 10's out there, everyone will start spamming the same armies, and logically all the newbies who see it will try strive to copy. I've seen a drastic increase in monk/matchlock abuse. If there's one thing I can do with my status on the 1v1 ladder (the first thing people see after clicking the board), it's try to influence a balance, improving the game for experienced players. I'm not bent on success, but I'd like to see change. A couple YouTube videos with high-profile commentators here, a few tournaments there... you never know. I do have friends in popular places!

[Thefallenhun]

I do have friends in popular places!

Ain't nothin' more popular than winning.

[KittySN]

Only to those who are shallow. Many veterans, particularly those of legitimate clans, have a sense of pride and honor (as much as some may squabble). They like battles with balance and skill. We're talking about experienced players here, not noobs and newbies. We'll always have noobs and newbies who don't know better or don't care. They're the "horse archer spam" and "mortar spam" in previous games. I do know a little about how these people think. I was the administrator of the RTW clan hub and a member of 2 clans myself...

[Secret agent]

Some days ago i had a battle where my ally camped on the red border,but i refused to do that and took it like a man(dying with honor).

[GambleFish]

This basically makes matchlocks a non-factor in the game, even in the later period. While good players can do a lot with 2 matchlocks, it doesn't really reflect my understanding of army composition in the later days of the Sengoku Jidai.

Gameplay-wise, I'd have to try it out, but it would be nice to guarantee no spamming of single types of units. I have a feeling that people wouldn't be able to spend full funds on 22k, but I could be wrong about that.

[Thefallenhun]

Only to those who are shallow. Many veterans, particularly those of legitimate clans, have a sense of pride and honor (as much as some may squabble). They like battles with balance and skill. We're talking about experienced players here, not noobs and newbies. We'll always have noobs and newbies who don't know better or don't care. They're the "horse archer spam" and "mortar spam" in previous games. I do know a little about how these people think. I was the administrator of the RTW clan hub and a member of 2 clans myself...

Ok cool. That's really good for you. I'm being really sincere.... aw crap I can't keep up the charade.

Really at the end of the day it comes down to whether that last digit in the string ticks to a 0 or a 1 giving you the victory or a loss.

I mean you could say, and everyone keeps bringing it up, some guy who won 300 games with mortars was not terribly skilled. One thing he did understand was the game. He could game that system better than anyone else, because his objective was winning. What you COULD say is that any game that allows you to manipulate certain factors of the game without cheating, is poorly coded, and therefore having a great record in that game is meaningless.

I would say that as of now, shogun IS one of those games, especially since the leaderboards keep dropping people thousands of places.

At the end of the day, haters gon hate, but your ultimate goal in multi should be a win, and the only line you should not cross is acutal cheating.

[Pyramid Head]

There were several Russian tournaments already with rather similar rules, but monks limited by 2, no art and no more than 6 of the same unit etc. so no prob.
the problem is - noone will obey them in avatar)

[Timox]

It seems, I'm playing PM rules for the last few weeks. Although I admit I may take 3 monks (2 nags + 1 bow/match) on large. Never see a reason to take more than 2 matchlocks anyway.

[swoosh so]

This post is becaue some guy at the .com said u had no honor from woodcamping?

[KittySN]

This post is becaue some guy at the .com said u had no honor from woodcamping?

Actually, I created this post prior to seeing that. I don't know what his problem is. I've been experimenting with more historical samurai builds lately, and apparently his power build wasn't satisfied that I'd get crushed in a fair fight by his superior firepower. He even delivered it in the first round. It's not like he was lost either--he had a very capable army even for a forest fight. I'm tired of catering to people who lack a variety in their strategy. Unless it's grossly unbalanced (weak army attacking strong), I never complain about a woods camper. Balancing a missile/cavalry superiority is a legitimate tactic.

[swoosh so]

Actually, I created this post prior to seeing that. I don't know what his problem is. I've been experimenting with more historical samurai builds lately, and apparently his power build wasn't satisfied that I'd get crushed in a fair fight by his superior firepower. He even delivered it in the first round. It's not like he was lost either--he had a very capable army even for a forest fight. I'm tired of catering to people who lack a variety in their strategy. Unless it's grossly unbalanced (weak army attacking strong), I never complain about a woods camper. Balancing a missile/cavalry superiority is a legitimate tactic.

If i look across all the forums i see a concerted attack on people who are top of the ladders by people who aint, i find it interesting.. well done on your rank 1 btw its deserved till somone knocks u off it imo as is amps shogun ranking till somone does the same.

[VersionLangley]

Delete plz

[Thefallenhun]

I remember a post in a "who would win Japan vs Medieval Europe thread" and one poster who was really tired of the people whose view of the samurai was shaped by Edo period drama said something to the effect of "samurai were not honorable men any more than the knights of europe were chivalrous men who rescued maidens from dragons, it was just an ideal they subscribed to and propoganda"

I would agree. War has pretty much zilch to do with honor. It involves thousands of people dying for someone's hurt pride, I don't think honor needs to come into this at all.

And you want to know some games that are REALLY hostile to play online? Play an NBA 2k title. People will use timeouts like weapons to stretch out the games
also the puase feature, and the replay feature. You can actually stop for like 30 seconds, and force the other player to watch you replay a dunk you just made.

[The Sword 88]

The PM rules sounds awesome, I generally play nearly by them anyway but it would be fun to play against oppenents using the same rules.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Hehehe CWB-rules are approaching.

Which denarii setting are these for?