Ah Come on - These ere elephants!

[alanpend]

Hello gang - I'm Al and Im new here. I have recently found SPQR after a long time playing RTRPE so I know a bit about battlefield tactics as used in that game. I have read all of the guides I can find on this site on tactics, surviving the first round etc. I have started and restarted SPQR and played the same scenario again and again. It seems it dont matter what I do my guys will always be stomped by the goddamned elephants. I have sent every damned missile thrower Ive got at em in every combintion I can think of - but no joy. In one game I managed to complety fool Hannibals army as to the whereabouts of my legion (uphill behind trees) his elephants grouped together - I threw every missile unit I had against them - result I got stomped. I am using a brand new install of version 8 So is it that I am bloody useless as a battlefield commander? Are my missile units in dire need of glasses, or is fighting elephants in this game a bit like using peashooters against panzers? Or what? Was it easier in previous releases? am I just a goddamn whinner? HELP!!!! By the bye - love the game never felt so involved in a game environment in my entire puff - excellent!!! But come on about these bloody pacaderms????

[lt1956]

What difficulty level are your playing? You should be playing M/M if not that could be your problem.

[alanpend]

Hello Lt_1956 Thanks for your reply - I have tried the game on M/M settings as you suggest as well as other combinations. I have found the different settings fairly easy to quick test. In turn one I move Quintas over to various locations on or over the Calabrian border. In turn two Hannibal attacks, battle begins and the elephants attack. As mentioned previously I have managed to arrange on a couple of occasions that two units of velites plus two units of slingers get a clear attack in at a single unit of elephants. I have watched the cloud of missiles thrown at the beasts and hovered the mouse cursor over the unit to see the effect - basically none either in casualties or morale! I dont expect to inflict mass death on the mammoths themselves but surely their human drivers are fair game? I am surprised that I cant seem to get the elephants to go out of control, maybe even run amok and cause damage and panic in the ranks of Hannibals own army! Unfortunately that just has not happened and the end results are depressingly predictable - my legion gets stomped every time and the elephant units seem to come out of the battle completely untouched. I love the look and feel of SPQR but this business of not being able to counter the Carthaginian armoured elephant attack is just, for me, a game killer. I am not a modder myself but I am a long time wargamer and a software engineer (retired). I am interested in finding out more about the game engines mechanics so I am off to read the various modding howtos on this forum and elsewhere. In the meantime I am wondering if there have been any significant changes between version 8.0 and the previous releases that would have made elephants such a formidable force? From other posts here I gather other players have beaten them as did the romans themselves. Regards Al

[tanglebones]

Hi alanpend, i know what you're going through as i had similar problems to start with. The key to defeating the elephant is without a doubt your velites, i suggest that you send all velites you have from the north to reinforce your legion that will later engage the carthaginians in the south.

As you know there isn't much time so you must act swiftly. Replace any slingers with your velites as they are far more effective. In Battle, all you need to defeat the elephant are 6 units of velites in your formation, stack them at the back of your lines in a row of 6 even squares >>> three squares for each flank, group them into two groups of three and set both skirmish and fire at will modes to off, then wait for the enemy to advance.

Don't worry about your main battle line, sacrifices have to be made, just keep your velites at the rear and out of harms way, concentrate their superior firepower on the beasts as they advance into range, they will soon fall, maybe not at first, but after a few volleys they will drop like flies. A good tip is to use a couple of merc units to act as a distraction for the elephant if needed, put these in proximity to the elephants direction of attack, usually at the flanks, anything that will buy your velites more time and allow them to keep on sending out volley after volley. Use your general also, have him ride up and down the rear of your formation in range of the elephants.

I hope this rough formation guide will help you - note the position of the velites, i have found that from these positions they perfectly compliment eachother, with no less than 2 blocks covering each angle of attack from the elephants - the 2 outter left blocks covering the left flank, and same on the right, also the two inner left covering the center, and again with the right, also at the center you have the combined force of 4 velites to eliminate any frontal attacks from the generals elephant unit, and if he dies, well the battle is basically won.

[Blade0815]

Hmm... doesn't this strech your infantry really thin?

From my experience two units of Velites are quite enough in these two battles. One big problem I've faced is that when you attack at maximum range the elefants won't die. When they start to pound your first line with their long range attack you will have to endure it and wait until they get closer.

When they immediatly charge your line with a direct assault that is bad luck, sorry but it's just that way.

In the ende these two battles are a question of try and error. Read Hesus guide http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=213012 carefully and try to lure in the elefants without having them charge your line. They are designed two be demanding and take some effort to be won.

[Nano_Magnus]

I agree, the key is to swith off fire at will, and you need to put your general behind units figthing eles, also use square formation not lines for your velites.
Lure eles and kill them if possible...

And don't worry we all know your pain, but after some practice eles are like pupies

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Switch off fire at will and skirmish mode.

[lt1956]

Alanpend, Elephants are easy to take out with velites, I have a feeling you are trying to use pilum alone to take them out. 1 unit of velites can kill 1 unit of elephants. I hope this helps.

Its a matter of tactics and timing, and a little luck. bring 3-4 velites if you want an easier time. Later you may come across armies with More than 4 elephants, these are a pain and best fought with more javelinmen.

[Zel408]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe spearmen are also slightly better at handling elephants than regular infantry. They may also suffer extreme losses like any other unit but you may see the elephants go down faster. I belive it is because they are considered a type of cavalry and spearmen have a bonus when fighting cavalry.

Oh and if you think elephants do damage, wait untill you run into the Briton's chariots.

[czePowerslave]

Chariots are easier to handle, but both require significant amount of javelins to be taken down. Also chariots fall to archers, while elephants do not. And mad elephant in middle of battle is far worse then normal one. Happened to me, crazy animal ran straight through the battle line, eliminating about 80% of my hastati in single trampling run.
He did though kill few stacks of their elite spearmen, go you elephant!

[Zel408]

I guess our experiences differ. I've defeated carthage easily but I suppose its because they dont make an army full of elephants similar to what the Britons have been throwing at me (an army full of chariots). I've literally had to dodge and avoid that army for several turns untill they seiged my city. I finally got rid of them when they charged into the gates but got melted by the hot oil. I've never suffered more extreme losses than at the hands of the Britons.

[czePowerslave]

I did, surprisingly not against Carthage, but against combined Greek stacks, with 8 chevron armored elephants covered by same elite style cavalry and huge hoplite group in middle. These guys do not rout, can take javelins with ease and are huge huge in numbers.
Add elephants.
Go cry.

[Zel408]

Sounds intimidating. I won't even bother invading Greece untill the Germans and Britons have been dealt with.

[czePowerslave]

Nono, Greece is one of the prime targets. Rich lands, close and easy to dominate, Zeus wonder is VERY important in general and you must not let them build up enough. Conquering Greece can pay for alot of legions.

[Zel408]

True but why bother with a campaign against Greece when they are not even invading my shores? The Germans have been sending countless armies and they have my undivided attention for now.

Another reason is that I would like to wait for the reforms to happen before I expand any further. I conquered all of Carthage, Gaul, and the Iberian Rebels without reaching the Marius Reforms. I'd hate to watch my Hastati and Principes get dealt with by their Spartans.

[czePowerslave]

Much better then to see your legion ripped apart. My first ever numbered legion battle was against Spartans. In the end I had some 150 men left in cohorts.

[Zel408]

I suppose the best way to deal with the Spartans is to force them to attack because they are just too good at defending. I'll probably stand my troops on high ground with plenty of missile troops to wear them down.

[czePowerslave]

And then what exactly? I followed the house rules, had 14 units capable of firing missiles against Spartans and still got kicked badly.

[Zebra's]

I always find that my velites kill most of the elephants but 2 or 3 are left over and run. Rampaged around the map. Also I find this werid, ever time I've ingaged Hannibal he seems to charge right into the fight, is this normal?

[czePowerslave]

Sadly, yes.