Artillery range and reload time(historical research help needed, not modding help)

[InsanePerson42]

I have made several personal modifications to ETW to make a much more realistic experience. Among my changes is that I have made artillery range and reload time relative to the weight of the shot(which is how I hear it was in real life)

My current system is as follows
range is equal to pound-times-100(6pounders have a range of 600, 12 pounders-1200, 24 pounders-2400 ect., for howitzers this is divided by2)
reload time is 20 for 6 pounders, and plus 15 for each increment of 6pounds(12 pounder reload time-35, 18pounder-50, 24 pounder-65 and so on)

The problem is that this system(while vastly superior to vanilla values) is completely arbitrary and not based on historical figures, as such it does not meet my standards for authenticity. If someone were to find some historical figures for me to base a new system on, I would be deeply grateful.

[Ryker]

I found some stuff on this website. The table below shows ranges for 16th Century guns but from what I read guns didn't change to much until the middle of the 19th Century.
The table also isn't complete, but using some other tables (total length, caliber length, powder charge) might make it possible to guess some of the ranges, both effective and maximum.
I've seen here that a lot of people made mods that modified cannon ranges - I wonder if ammo should be limited for artillery as well when the gun is capable of shooting diagonally across the battlemap...

[InsanePerson42]

Ok I am finally getting back to this and I have the beginnings of a new system, this one actually based on some research. This is a constant work in progress and I am always on the lookout for more reliable sources, sources corroboration ones I'v already seen, or just more sources. So if you have some information please post it here.

Catagories are 3pndr, 6pndr, 9pndr, 12 pndr, 18pndr, 24 pndr, 32 pndr, 42 pndr, and 64 pndr. For each of these I want to find- range, projectile velocity, loading time, # of projectiles(cannister). The information for most size cannons must be made at least three times(1-round shot, 2-canister, 3-shrapnel/case shot) Some of the larger calibers are navel guns only so we won't be worried about canister or shrapnel for them, instead we need to find information about grape and chain shot for them, as well as for all other calibers used in navel warfare(in empire/napoleon total war). For those calibres that come with howitzers and morter we will need separate information regaurding them as well(howitzers cannot be assumed to have the same range/velocity as direct fire cannons)

3pnd roundshot. range-400(based on Rykers attached thumbnail above)

6pnd roundshot. range-500(based on Rykers attached thumbnail above)

9pnd roundshot. range-800(based on information on this page-http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_artillery_napoleonic.html)

cannister for all. range-300(based on information on the same url as above)

12pnd roundshot. range-1,600. velocity-1,500 ft/sec(based on capabilities of Civil War 12 pound Napoleon gun as provided by wikipedia)this figure is in question(as is 9pndr range) because information on the following webpage suggests that the 12pnr and 9pndr had similar range-(http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Br..._Wellington)on the fifth page from the top, at the beginning of the equipment section

loading time- 1 round per minute(based on youtube video showing the loading process of a 12 pound Napoleon-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=296CIm9y2Ek&feature=related)

12pnd Howitzer. range-1,000. velocity-1,000ft/sec(based on capabilities of the Civil War 12pnd howitzer shown in this article-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_artillery_in_the_American_Civil_War).

32pnd roundshot. loading time-3 rounds in 5 minutes( based on dialoge in Sharpe's Trafalgar by Bernard Cornwell, pg.180 third paragragh "'How fast are we?' Sharpe asked Llwellyn. The Welshman shrugged. 'on a good, day, Sharpe? Three broadsides in five minutes'") this could also be interpreted to mean on an average day about 1 round per two minutes.

#of canister projectiles for 3pndr-50, 6pndr-80, 12pndr-150, 24pndr-300(based on information posted by Peter Constantine on this page-http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=170046) 12pndr canister is in doubt as the previous youtube video said there were 27 projectiles in a 12 pound canister(information which is corroborated by donlowry in above forum) I went with Peter Constantines figures because they gave me numbers for every calliber, and they allowed me to generalize about other callibers. Elsewhere on that forum it is mentioned that there are 9 grapeshot projectiles in a 24 pounder cannon, and 78 projectiles in a 12pndr case shot(shrapnel)

#of canister projectiles for 9pndr-110, 18pndr-200, 32pndr-400(based on personal generalizations from the figures given by Peter Constantine said forum)


And thats what I've got so far, as you will note there is still a long ways to go and I would live to confirm the numbers I have so far. Feel free to post any information you have on this subject. I'll try to find a way to organize the information a bit better.

My eventual goal is to mod empire total war(and napoleon) to reflect 18th century/napoleonic warfare as realistically as possible. I can never achieve perfect realism for the whole scope of warfare, as total war games lack a system for line of sight among other things. But I believe it is entirely possible to achieve perfect realism for weapons capabilities.

[robbyg]

This book Artillery Through The Ages should also provide some valuable information for that matter.

Keep it Up!

[Kaunitz]

I guess we can have more realistic projectiles in ETW than vanilla ETW offers. Unfortunately it's not a matter of range, reloading time and number of projectiles which would be easy to mod. The main flaw of vanilla artillery projectiles is, as Didz has shown, their trajectory (which - via bouncing - also affects range and accuracy). Here are some links to the info provided by Didz and the discussions we had:

Didz on artillery (artillery problems during the engagement at San Munoz)
Didz on artillery accuracy/trajectories
Didz on artillery ranges and trajectories
Didz on the lethality of artillery
canister (post 155 to 158)
some more information on grazing-distances of various calibres
Artillery at waterloo

Good luck with it! You might also want to take a look at my mod (coming out in about 2 weeks), for it tries to achieve exactly what you've described here.

The problem for me is, that I'm using a scale of 4:1 in this mod which makes "realistical" projectiles alsmost impossible. In order to compensate for the decreased "maximum elevation" I have to increase the "velocity" of the projectile - probably to a realistic velocity in terms of a 1:1 scale (if I don't do that the gun can't fire). The downside is that the ball travels much farther than it should when it flies down a slope, for it travels at a 1:1 scale-speed. Very complicated to explain....

[InsanePerson42]

This book Artillery Through The Ages should also provide some valuable information for that matter.

Keep it Up!

This should be very useful thanks

Kaunitz-you bring up an interesting point. I had assumed that all I would need to do is enter the correct velocity and make sure the game had good gravitational effects and trajectory would be taken care of. Round shot does bounce considerably in game, but if there are factors I have not considered I would be happy to learn about them. Your sources look like they will be very useful, I have yet to go ever them in detail but I am interested in ensuring cannister spread is accurate.

edit: Also I just realized I haven't covered mortar capabilities at all. I was just entering figures into my DB projectile tables and I realized that I have left the mortars completely untouched, anyone got anything on them?

Also I am considering creating a whole forum with the TWCforums dedicated to achieving as near-perfect realism in 18'th century warfare as the empire/napoleon engine will allow. Of which this would be just one of many threads. Of course I don't know how to do this or where I would get permission to do so or even to what extent I need permission to do so.

I thought perhaps some of us realism fanatics(those of us who wish to see the same level of authenticity found in the Combat Mission and Theater of War series transplanted into the 18/19th century) could get together on such a forum and compare sources, modding info, and perhaps even release the combined result of our efforts once every(predetermined unit of time, perhaps each year or six months) to prevent us getting bogged down like(duke nukem, EB2, Black Mesa). Combined we could push the limits of the TW engine to achieve a more authentic simulation of 18'th century warfare than anyone before, related submods might even do the same for the 19th century.