A New Faction, v.2.0

[Cinuz]

Hi guys, I'm opening the last (I hope) thread about this topic. In this topic, you'll have to point out some solid arguments to make one of the three factions I'm presenting to be elected. With this I mean: historical reasons, gameplay reasons, pros, cons and a unit roster [possibly]. This will help us in creating the new faction!
Actually, this is what me and alexander wanted you to do in the other topics, but it seems that we were misintended.

The three factions that in the last poll turned out to be the most popular are this three:

- Syracuse
- Bosphoran Kingdom
- Boii tribes

I'll modify this post while you present your arguments.

-----------------------------------

The Boii tribes:

Pros: this faction would balance the situation in northern italy/france/germany since romans, gauls and germans are somewhat overpowered, more variety with an extra barbarian faction, interesting unit roster

Cons: somewhat similar to the gauls, they're near to some powerful factions, maybe italy it's somewhat small for another faction that is not allied with anyone (there isn't a long lasting peace like in vanilla rtw with the 4 romans' factions)

Unit roster:

Infantry:
- Warband
- Swords Warband (the same the Illyrians have tough, the one with oval shields from Alex expansion; to create some variety)
- Warchief Spearmen (pratically, the gothic cavalry from germans, but dismounted OR most probably barb_general model [like XC did])
- Night Raiders
- Heavy swordsmen (choosen swordsmen unit, but armed with the fanatics' shield. Again, to create some variety)

Skirmishers:
- Skirmishers
- Slingers
- Hunters (but armed with javelins)

Cavalry:
- Barbarian Cavalry
- Barbarian Bodyguard (both versions)
- Barbarian Javelin Cavalry

-----------------------------------

Syracuse

Historical reason: most powerful Greek polis at any time. Able to hold Carthage and Rome at bay for quite some time. Pretty expansionist. Ruled by tyrants who, unlike the modern word "Tyrant", actually cared for their own people.
Pros: (for player) challenging faction, has one city that should produce a positive revenue at the start of the campaign. Large variety of units
Cons: (for AI) perhaps too challenging, unless you'd implement a campaign script (*not* a background script) that gives Syracuse more starting money when played by the AI. Perhaps a bit similar to the other Greeks.

Unit Roster

Infantry:
- Levy Thureophoroi
- Hoplites (generic)
- Syracusian Hoplites (more elite)
- Syracusian Guard (elite hoplites)
- Thorakitai (Roman imitation infantry. They probably had these)
Possibly a few Italian units to represent the mercenaries that often fought for Syracuse

Skirmishers:
- Javelineers
- Slingers
- Archers

Cavalry:
- Hippikoi (light, javelin tossing cavalry)
- Syracusian Hippeis (shock cavalry, stronger than the regular Greek cavalry. More in the range of Thessalians/Hetairoi)
- Syracusian General's Bodyguard (slightly stronger version of above, perhaps with a different model and skin)

-----------------------------------

The Bosporan Kingdoms

Historical Reason: The Bosphoran Kingdom was the very first Hellenized kingdom outside of Greece/Western Anatolia. Founded by a Thracian called Spartacus (legend has it). It was well established by the start date, and had its hay day in the 1st/2nd century BC. It inflicted crushing defeats on Scythian tribes.

Gameplay Reason: They'd prevent Scythians to entirely dominate the steppe so easily and they'd also be a challange to pontic, antigonid, armenian and atropatenian hegemony in that area (if one of this faction manage to get in touch with them). They would also make the game in the northern east less boring.

Pros: Unique starting position, could expand anywhere. Historically very rich. Very various unit roster.

Cons: Very close to the Scythians, might be too much for the AI.

Unit roster:

Infantry:
-Schytian axe warband. [1st tier barracks]
-Light Thureophoroi. [2nd tier barracks]
-Greco-Scythian Hoplites. [3rd tier barracks]
-Bosphoran infantry. (BI's bosphoran mercenaries model) [3rd tier barracks]
-Elite Hoplites. (the greek high borgesy, able to buy the full hoplites' equipment) [4th tier barracks]
-Royal Guard. (a very elitarian hoplites' formation, the king's guard on foot on the battlefield) [5th tier barracks]

Skirmishers:
-Peltasts [1st tier]
-Archers [2nd tier]
-Bosporans Archers (Bow, Shield and Spear. Similar stats to Alex expension Immortals) [this is okay, i think in BI there's an appropiate model - 3rd tier]
-Ballista
-Onager

Cavalry:
-Steppe Horse Archers [1st tier - 2nd tier with exp bonus]
-Scythian Noble Cavalry [3rd tier]
-Scythian Cataphracts. (I've thought at them cause I believe that the Scythian aristocracy serving the greeks' king would serve as cavalrymen. This are the very important and rich nobles, while the Scythian Noble cavalry is composed by the "lesser" nobles) [4th tier]
-Greek BG [Not recruitable - Mounted]

-----------------------------------

Okay then, post your ideas now!

NOTE: all of the factions' infos written in here are WIPs...don't take them as definitive version. If you guys see something that in your opinion needs to be changed, just post your ideas!

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

Syracuse

Historical reason: most powerful Greek polis at any time. Able to hold Carthage and Rome at bay for quite some time. Pretty expansionist. Ruled by tyrants who, unlike the modern word "Tyrant", actually cared for their own people.
Pros: (for player) challenging faction, has one city that should produce a positive revenue at the start of the campaign. Large variety of units
Cons: (for AI) perhaps too challenging, unless you'd implement a campaign script (*not* a background script) that gives Syracuse more starting money when played by the AI. Perhaps a bit similar to the other Greeks.

Unit Roster

Infantry:
- Levy Thureophoroi
- Hoplites (generic)
- Syracusian Hoplites (more elite)
- Syracusian Guard (elite hoplites)
- Thorakitai (Roman imitation infantry. They probably had these)
Possibly a few Italian units to represent the mercenaries that often fought for Syracuse

Skirmishers:
- Javelineers
- Slingers
- Archers

Cavalry:
- Hippikoi (light, javelin tossing cavalry)
- Syracusian Hippeis (shock cavalry, stronger than the regular Greek cavalry. More in the range of Thessalians/Hetairoi)
- Syracusian General's Bodyguard (slightly stronger version of above, perhaps with a different model and skin)

[Aleksander the Average]

Thank you Cinuz for finally getting this rolling +rep (if i could)

i have a few suggestions, questions, and so on.

Boii: i would say give them one special unit (night raiders, druids) not both. otherwise i like this roster and i know they've all been proposed before when we were thinking of doing boii a while back.

i would also like to see your proposed starting locations on the map for them. i'm sure you can find a blank rtw map somewhere and sketch it up
_
__________________ _______________________ _____________________
And thank you bullet for helping start this thread. +rep (if i could)

Syracuse: i would like to know some more about the new units you are proposing. tell me a little bit more about syracusan specific units/ new units.

also, When you say Levy thureophoroi, are you referring to one of the already implemented early light and late heavy thurephoroi units in ths?

the map position of syracuse is more obvious, but is there anything you might change about the map to give them an advantage?
_

Lastly, if neither of you wants to do the bosphorans, i'll do them later today.

______________

edit: also, i want to remind everyone that this is a serious discussion thread. if they want to mess around then they can do so on the poll threads.

[Valkar]

First of all, can I wish you guys success with your nice Hosted mod forum !

- Warchief Spearmen (pratically, the gothic cavalry from germans, but dismounted)

Some Critism on this point:
It wouldn't be very historical correct to use the model from Gothic cavalry for the Boii, because the model is based on a Goth.
I suggest you use the barb_general model instead (like XC did)

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

Syracuse: i would like to know some more about the new units you are proposing. tell me a little bit more about syracusan specific units/ new units.

also, When you say Levy thureophoroi, are you referring to one of the already implemented early light and late heavy thurephoroi units in ths?

the map position of syracuse is more obvious, but is there anything you might change about the map to give them an advantage?
_

Light Thureophoroi, but with slightly altered stats. They should be rather inexpensive (less expensive than regular light thureophoroi, at least) and should also come in quite a large number.

To be honest, I don't know how the current map is . I haven't got to downloading THS yet. How is the map around Sicily right now?

[Aleksander the Average]

Light Thureophoroi, but with slightly altered stats. They should be rather inexpensive (less expensive than regular light thureophoroi, at least) and should also come in quite a large number.

To be honest, I don't know how the current map is . I haven't got to downloading THS yet. How is the map around Sicily right now?

to be perfectly honest, if you haven't actually played at least one campaign half way or so through, i can't regard your opinion very well for gameplay reasons. and though i agree with you on some of your history, i need you to know a bit about THS before you can make such bold suggestions.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

It's like vanilla. That puts a full stop behind the campaign map part
The only thing I don't know is battles, but that's for you to figure out because we are just here to support the mod. I didn't give numbers for a reason; it's your job to find the correct balance, not mine. I'm just suggesting units. I can understand that you can't accept my gameplay points when I'd say like "Syracuse needs to be in because it prevents faction X from overpowering Y", but that's exactly why I didn't say any such thing (and thus is left to do for the other people who voted Syracuse).

You can disconcern my advice because I didn't play the mod, but it would be kind of pointless, imo.

[Aleksander the Average]

Well it's not entirely fair to make an argument for one faction or another when you don't have a vested interest in the mod itself, but that's not to say that your opinion won't be heard and respected.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

And that's exactly the reason why I'm not making arguments I can't support.
Don't forget, I can only look at the factions given here. Which means it's still a fair choice on my side.

[Aleksander the Average]

in any case, i urge you to try the mod out. as i'm sure those who have tried it will tell you, it's loads of fun.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

That was my plan

[Apollyon]

As no-one else has suggested anything for them...

The Bosporan Kingdoms

Historical Reason: The Bosphoran Kingdom was the very first Hellenized kingdom outside of Greece/Western Anatolia. Founded by a Thracian called Spartacus (legend has it). It was well established by the start date, and had its hay day in the 1st/2nd century BC. It inflicted crushing defeats on Scythian tribes.

Pros: Unique starting position, could expand anywhere. Historically very rich.

Cons: Very close to the Scythians, might be too much for the AI.

Unit roster:

Infantry:
-Light Thureophoroi
-Greco-Scythian Hoplites (could be generic Hoplites, or very similar (Illyrian model springs to mind)).
-Thurephoroi
-Thorakitai (possibly using axes instead of swords?)

Skirmishers:
-Peltasts
-Archers
-Bosporans Archers (Bow, Shield and Spear. Similar stats to Alex expension Immortals)
-Ballista
-Onager

Cavalry:
-Steppe Horse Archers
-Greek Cavalry
-Scythian Noble Cavalry

They are my suggestions, open for dissection to all.

[Metaluis90]

I would like to expand a little further the unit roster proposed by Apollyon, because, being in such a privileged position, the bosphoran kingdom would have been in contact with so many other people, from thracians to caucasian iberians, so the mixture of the colonial greeks with the local people would create a very interesting mixture of troops, very different of what we could see in other greek kingdoms, such as the continental Greece or even the Seleucid Empire. units like:

Greco-Scythian hoplites
Bosphoran infantry/archers comes firstly in mind, with a very wide variety of units aviviable to the faction, with a proper investigation made.

[Apollyon]

I would like to expand a little further the unit roster proposed by Apollyon, because, being in such a privileged position, the bosphoran kingdom would have been in contact with so many other people, from thracians to caucasian iberians, so the mixture of the colonial greeks with the local people would create a very interesting mixture of troops, very different of what we could see in other greek kingdoms, such as the continental Greece or even the Seleucid Empire. units like:

Greco-Scythian hoplites
Bosphoran infantry/archers comes firstly in mind, with a very wide variety of units aviviable to the faction, with a proper investigation made.

I quite like your suggestions.

If I was to change anything, I'd make the Light Thureophoroi the first level barracks option (lower stats than usual), and put a Hoplite unit as the second level. Your Greco-Scythian Hoplite idea could fit in there.

Bosphoran Archers were famous, hailed as skilled with a bow and spear (very similar to Persian Immortals now I think of it).

I think I'll do a little tweaking with my suggestion...

[Cinuz]

Thank you all guys for your suggestions! Here's some changes about the bosphoran kingdom from the precedent post of Apollyon:

The Bosporan Kingdoms

Historical Reason: The Bosphoran Kingdom was the very first Hellenized kingdom outside of Greece/Western Anatolia. Founded by a Thracian called Spartacus (legend has it). It was well established by the start date, and had its hay day in the 1st/2nd century BC. It inflicted crushing defeats on Scythian tribes.

Gameplay Reason: They'd prevent Scythians to entirely dominate the steppe so easily and they'd also be a challange to pontic, antigonid, armenian and atropatenian hegemony in that area (if one of this faction manage to get in touch with them). They would also make the game in the northern east less boring.

Pros: Unique starting position, could expand anywhere. Historically very rich. Very various unit roster.

Cons: Very close to the Scythians, might be too much for the AI.

Unit roster:

Infantry:
-Light Thureophoroi [1st tier barracks]
-Greco-Scythian Hoplites. [2nd tier barracks]
-Schytian axe warband. [2nd tier barracks]
-Elite Hoplites. (the greek high borgesy, able to buy the full hoplites' equipment) [3rd tier barracks]
-Bosphoran infantry. (BI's bosphoran mercenaries model) [3rd tier barracks]
-Thorakitai. [4th tier barracks]

Skirmishers:
-Peltasts [1st tier]
-Archers [2nd tier]
-Bosporans Archers (Bow, Shield and Spear. Similar stats to Alex expension Immortals) [this is okay, i think in BI there's an appropiate model - 3rd tier]
-Ballista
-Onager

Cavalry:
-Steppe Horse Archers [1st tier - 2nd tier with exp bonus]
-Scythian Noble Cavalry [3rd tier]
-Scythian Cataphracts. (I've thought at them cause I believe that the Scythian aristocracy serving the greeks' king would serve as cavalrymen. This are the very important and rich nobles, while the Scythian Noble cavalry is composed by the "lesser" nobles) [4th tier]
-Greek BG [Not recruitable]


What do you think?

[Apollyon]

I really like it!

I only have an issue with Scythian Noble Cavalry being second tier. They are at the least a 3rd tier, and the Cataphracts at the least a 4th tier. I know they are second tier to Scythians, but they don't develop as much as civilised factions do. Nor as fast in my experience.

Otherwise looks awesome! We need room for all three factions

[Cinuz]

Uhm, yeah why not? This could be done by adding an experience boost to the schytian archer at the second tier! Edited!

[Apollyon]

Now along the lines of another thread a proposed bodyguard unit.

I would usually suggest an unmounted bodyguard for a Greek nation (that isn't Macedonian), but considering the influence of the Scythians it would have to be an armoured cavalry bodyguard. Either Royal Squadron or Scythian Cataphract.

[Aleksander the Average]

the infantry needs to be recomposed.

there cannot be three thureophoroi unit types.

it is enough to have two.

also, the standard is to have light thureophoroi in militia barracks and regular thureophoroi in city baracks. this should not be changed.
thorakitai can only be recruited in royal barracks (tier 5), so they won't be an option either.

here are some options for recomposition:

Infantry:
- Scythian axe warband. [1st tier barracks]
- Hoplites [2nd tier barracks] (colonist line infantry)
- Bosphoran infantry. [2nd tier barracks] (nativist line infantry)
- Normal Thureophoroi [3rd tier barracks]
- Armored Hoplites [4th tier barracks] (because they are harder to import from the mainland)

or:
- Scythian axe warband. [1st tier barracks]
- Hoplites [2nd tier barracks] (colonist line infantry)
- Normal Thureophoroi [3rd tier barracks]
- Armored Hoplites [3rd tier barracks]
- Bosphoran infantry. [4th tier barracks] (with better stats)

i would also recommend sarmatian cav. somewhere in there.

[Metaluis90]

EDIT: What I think is that we are missing a bit the "Hellenisation" concept, which is

Hellenization (or Hellenisation) is a term used to describe the spread of ancient Greek culture, and, to a lesser extent, language. It is mainly used to describe the spread of Hellenistic civilization during the Hellenistic period following the campaigns of Alexander the Great of Macedon. The result of Hellenization was that elements of Greek origin combined in various forms and degrees with local elements, which is known as Hellenism. In modern times, Hellenization has been associated with the adoption of modern Greek culture and the ethnic and cultural homogenization of Greece

So that, to be able to see this concept of hellenisation, what this beign given is the greek culture, their way of life and (as is stated) their language. But who's the receptor of this process? That's the key point of the concept, the hellenisation comes when non greek or non hellenic people, tribes, etc., adopt that form of life. Clearly is impossible that those people abandon every aspects of their former life, and the product of this process is shown as a mixture of both behaviour, the local one (name scythian, bosphoran, caucasian, etc) with the greek one.

Obviously this couldn't be achieved if the greeks hadn't colonised the places where the hellenic culture was introduced, but this aproach came in different levels. That said, it isn't the same degree of hellenisation in Margiana and the furthermost places where Alexander went, to even the Bosphoran Kingdom; there where places in Seleucid Empire where only in the cities the greeks lived, and there where no intercultural exchange on those places.

On the other hand, There WERE a markable hellenisation in the Bosphoran Kingdom, as stated before. So having a

I would vote for a stronger use of native hellenised troops, as alexander (if Im not wrong) stated, Bosphorian Kingdom was the first HELLENISED kingdom, which not implies that its people were actual continental greeks or greeks born in the kingdom, but people of different ethnics that adopted the ways of the greek; so having a scythian which fights like a greek, using his ethnical costume, like the trousers or his helmet, with the greek panoplia and fightin like a hoplite. The sincretism between those peoples (the greeks and the indigneous) is the key of that hellenisation, instead of remarking the difference (scythians goes there, greeks go htere

I hope i explained myself