Clans behaviour regarding foreigners and trade

[TWmadman]

Hey,

i would like to know what is the general attitude of major clans toward strangers, trade (merchants) and fire arms.

I like to play as close to historical way as possible.
I know some Clans adopted christianity (with all the complexity of japanese culture, some daymios converted to christianity, so all their people, and another day they quit it... so all their people too...) some others were very interested in trading with foreigners, some were not (i know the general opinion on strangers, especially europeans was not good and there was a lot of xenophobia/racism or only strong will to protect traditions but it leads to same result...).
Last point, i know some clans used a lot fire arms and european technology to improve their warefare but i guess some other clans refused this new way (dishonour).

i m not asking you to tell me what is the standing of each clan toward : christianity, trading (merchants in general, who were the lowest social class regarding prestige) or fire arms usage.

but since i play a lot with Takeda, Hattori and Uesugi, i would love you to give me your knowledge about heses 3 clans regardings the points i ve mentioned (christianity, trade, fire arms).

thx!!!

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

Who told you that the daimyos thought firearms was dishonorable? I know Takeda hoarded a crapload of guns (little known fact). Read some of the family histories. At least Kenshin and Shingen were both very interested in firearms - Shingen, in particular, called for heavy usage of fire arms because he believe it would be vital to war later on.

Unfortunately, neither the Uesugi nor the Takeda had capabilities to produce fire arms natively. This essentially forced them to buy the teppo from merchants. Estimates range about a few hundred. No more. They were never capable of producing teppo like Oda did (though the amount of teppou Oda had in his possesion is in severe dispute.) Prices of fire arms ranged from 160 kan to as high as 300 kan across Japan.

In the record of Shouyama, it is stated that Shingen received three thousand cavalry horses, eight hundred bows, and three hundred guns as a great gift when he marched against Kenshin. In Kenshin's famed Hanging Chariot formation, we know that guns are integrated in that formation. How many, where they're stationed, we don't know.

Looking at trade logs and documents, Echigo was known for its production of gold/salmon-trout/dyes/wax. The winters were exceptionally harsh. While certain regions were suitable for farming, the location of Echigo inevitably meant that you cannot invade other areas very easily. But back to gold. Do you know how much gold Echigo had in its backyard? Conservative estimate was that more than half of Japan's total gold deposit was located there. That is also why the Uesugi (speaking of the folks there as a collective group) was able to hold and fight against both the Hojo and Takeda.

Takeda on the other hand... Ugh. Where to begin? Takeda had supply issues, which was why Shinano was such a vital position for them to take. Mountaneous regions of the Takeda domain was mostly ill-suited for farming. I know Kai province was known for its horses, crystals, tobacco, and I think grapes. And of course, gold production was what fueled the Takeda warmachine. One of Shingen's reforms was that he modified canals and had a lot of waterworks in an attempt to increase the prosperity of Kai province. He also developed the mining network very extensively - it is said that there were something like five hundred thousand taels of gold near center Kai alone.

[TWmadman]

thank you for all theses good informations, indeed i don't have time at moment to read some of the best historical books about the sengoku jidai period.
So, you did well about fire arms and trade, but what about the relationship Uesugi and Takeda had with foreigners?(europeans i mean, i m not talking about chineses or koreans)

Any info regarding Hattori clan on the same questions?

thx again mate

[毛利 元就]

The Hattori... wellll they didn't REALLY exist like they do in the game. There was a retainer of Tokugawa Ieyasu's of the Hattori, but they weren't a regional player anywhere on the level of Takeda, Mori, or Uesugi.. much less Oda. They were one of the many, many minor clans that littered the landscape of a totally politically fractured land. It was included in the game to appeal to popular culture's adoption of Hattori Hanzo, Iga's association with ninja, and nerds thinking both of these things are "TOTALLY SHWEET." Iga itself wasn't really unified until Nobunaga swept it up in his conquest of the Kinai (home provinces).

[TWmadman]

thank you guys

SO looking at historical facts:

- It would not be a mistake to open a Narban port as Takeda/Uesugi?
- Takeda/Uesugi should favour merchants and not harass them?
- Takeda/Uesugi should be open to fire arms technology in warfare

right?

[DeMolay]

thank you guys

SO looking at historical facts:

- It would not be a mistake to open a Narban port as Takeda/Uesugi?
- Takeda/Uesugi should favour merchants and not harass them?
- Takeda/Uesugi should be open to fire arms technology in warfare

right?

Yep , but the Nanban port should be available for sure for Oda (befriended and welcomed christian trade ) , Otomo (christian daymio who hosted trade in his port of Fuchu ) .
and Date (had contact and trade with Christians too ) , there was also a port the Dutch and Chinese used to trade at Hirado in north-west Kyushu . Perhaps other clans i'm not aware of .


For Uesugi and Takeda as well as other clans (Ikko-Ikkis used arquebus , Murakami used it etc ) of the region , i read they bought their arquebus in small quantities ( by the hundreds max ) from other clans . We also know that small quantities of Chinese arquebuses were also used like Murakami Yoshikyo at the battle of Uedahara . But i never read they hosted a port trading with christians in their home regions though

Clans like Oda or Tokugawa after 1573 , provided themselves with arquebuses from the Kunimoto factory in Omi , so these 2 clans and their vassals could equipp themselves with thousands of arquebuses (which designs were improved over the initial european "tanegashima" arquebus ) and for a lesser price

By the way , very good post by Ying Duke of Quing

[Stellerex]

Generally speaking, I think if you wanted to study Japanese exposure to foreigners, you had to look to Kyushu. From their use of foreign ceramics and silks, their widespread adoption of Christianity, well-developed cities and trading ports, to warm weather, Kyushu was a country separate and apart from the rest of Japan.

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

Favoring merchants and trade? I don't think any daimyo's really against that.

For Uesugi and Takeda as well as other clans (Ikko-Ikkis used arquebus , Murakami used it etc ) of the region , i read they bought their arquebus in small quantities ( by the hundreds max ) from other clans . We also know that small quantities of Chinese arquebuses were also used like Murakami Yoshikyo at the battle of Uedahara . But i never read they hosted a port trading with christians in their home regions though

I've been digging around first-hand sources. As far as Takeda goes, nothing about trade with Christians is mentioned in the Koyo Gunkan (one of the best records we have on the Takeda clan, though recently, its historical authenticity has came under fire as Kosaka is really NOT consistent at all when it comes to writing). Certainly no Nanban quarters like you'd see in game.

We know that Shingen was supposedly a "devout Buddhist." His name, Shingen, is really a buddhist name - he declared himself the head abbot of the Tendai sect. How serious did he take his religion, however, is up to interpretation. One of the policies documented is that in order to solve the whole monks-having-women thing, Shingen decreed that Buddhist monks may pay a small fee to "buy" the right of having a wife.

(What Shingen did that pissed other people off during the time - do not read spoiler if you wish to preserve your mental image of him. )

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is just off the top of my head. Shingen murdered his own retainer, banged his niece and then took her as a concubine, exiled his father, didn't care much for his son (only appointed him heir because he need support from Katsuyori's mother's side, really - this dynamic is documented very well), signs a peace treaty with Kenshin under the Shogun's approval that he will be peaceful while Kenshin heads off to Kyoto. The second Kenshin leaves he ninjas Echigo. The second what'shisname (guy who got killed by Oda) dies he flips around and steals their territory when they were previously allied. Then he enters in an alliance with Tokugawa to take on the Imagawa. As soon as the Imagawa clan falls he attacks Tokugawa...

I know no one's a saint in the sengoku period, but tl;dr: Shingen is a bastard.

... Plus, the man himself was pretty much one of the biggest magnificent bastards in that period. It's easier to count the things that he did that didn't cause a major uproar at the time. So, were it up to me, I don't think Shingen cares about Christian missionaries so long as they're not riling up the population and the monks aren't raging at him because of FOREIGN DEVILS.

Kenshin's preliminary analysis will come later.

[Stellerex]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is just off the top of my head. Shingen murdered his own retainer, banged his niece and then took her as a concubine, exiled his father, didn't care much for his son (only appointed him heir because he need support from Katsuyori's mother's side, really - this dynamic is documented very well), signs a peace treaty with Kenshin under the Shogun's approval that he will be peaceful while Kenshin heads off to Kyoto. The second Kenshin leaves he ninjas Echigo. The second what'shisname (guy who got killed by Oda) dies he flips around and steals their territory when they were previously allied. Then he enters in an alliance with Tokugawa to take on the Imagawa. As soon as the Imagawa clan falls he attacks Tokugawa...

I know no one's a saint in the sengoku period, but tl;dr: Shingen is a bastard.

Although the stuff of soap operas, Shingen's life is characteristic of the daimyo during this period. There's virtually no distinction between acting out of necessity and opportunism. In the east, no matter what treaties they made, the Takeda, Uesugi, and Hojo would attack each other if one was getting too powerful. They had a similar arrangement with the Imagawa but when Yoshimoto died at Okehazama, Takeda and Tokugawa sided with Oda and divided them up. Shingen would later betray the Oda and Tokugawa but died besieging a Tokugawa castle.

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

Although the stuff of soap operas, Shingen's life is characteristic of the daimyo during this period. There's virtually no distinction between acting out of necessity and opportunism. In the east, no matter what treaties they made, the Takeda, Uesugi, and Hojo would attack each other if one was getting too powerful. They had a similar arrangement with the Imagawa but when Yoshimoto died at Okehazama, Takeda and Tokugawa sided with Oda and divided them up. Shingen would later betray the Oda and Tokugawa but died besieging a Tokugawa castle.

I agree with your analysis. The backstabbing thing wasn't terribly unusual - though several notable individuals did refrain from doing too much of it (Kenshin, again). Nonetheless, I'd like to highlight Shingen's flaws here because, to be fair, there is criticism even in his own clan regarding some of his actions. One of the reasons why Kenshin really didn't get along with him was precisely that - Kenshin viewed him as a morally aberrant, dishonorable man who is ruled completely by instinct.

See, it really depends on whose family history you read. From the Uesugi perspective, Shingen = Brute. Kenshin = Saint. From Takeda's perspective, Shingen = HOLYCRAPTHISGUYWASAWESOME, and Kenshin = short-sighted fool who just hung around Echigo instead of expanding outward.

(From Oda's perspective: You're both idiots! Should have stopped me when you had the chance! Mwaha~)