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Thread: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia,Serbia, Anciliaries and titles.

  1. #161
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    there is no recorded dukljans as large tribe which came, it could be only sub group of one of two large tribe which came: serbs and croats.
    What are the sources for Serbs and Croats being the only two large Slavic tribes which came to the Balkans? Because, you know, the DAI was written at a time when those two groups had already established themselves quite well and thus more likely represents the contemporary view rather than the view from the times of the Slavic settlement.
    In my view, although it's certainly not categorical, when the Slavs came here, they were all divided to their own relatively small tribes, with no idea of persistent political unity (beyond the idea of the war-chieftain gathering "all" tribes for a great raid etc.) And in time only the tribes of the Serbs and the Croats managed to form an actual state organization, which expanded over the other Slavic tribes in the region and "assimilated" them, while obviously keeping their old identities (regional and Slavic) as well. Similar is with the Bulgarian Slavs, with the difference that they owe their state organization to the non-Slavic Bulgars. F.e. when the Bulgarian state imposed its rule, culture etc. over Thrace and Macedonia, the various Slavic tribes there eventually became Bulgarians (particularly in Christian Bulgarian times where state language was Slavic) besides being f.e. Berzitis (regional) and Slavs (general). But before that they weren't Bulgarians (they were just Slavs from this or that region; the main reason why Slavicists put them into the "Bulgarian Slavs" category is because they eventually became such, just as the other tribes eventually would have become Serbian and Croatian Slavs or would've assimilated into the Byzantine Romans).

  2. #162
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Nice to see a mod which is trying to represent Great Moravian faction (as well as the other factions) historicaly. I very like the concept of your mod and cross fingers for you
    May I suggest you to use the cross of Mikulčice instead of an Moravian eagle as Great Moravian coat of arms? The Eagle became the Coat of Arms of Moravian Margravate (March) only in the second half of 13th century and I doubt it has any connection with Great Moravia.

    Cross of Mikulčice:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K%...ul%C4%8Dic.png
    if you do not like the cross maybe you could also use the falconer:
    http://www.ved.sk/RODNA%20CESTA/RC%2...y.sokoliar.jpg

  3. #163

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Cannot really help much here, but I read about some interesting findings near Bojnß, Slovakia. Obviously there was some kind of fortified town of great importance, almost comparable to Nitra. There was findings of swords, jewellery, but most important, of bronze bells (probably part of a church predating Saint Cyril and Metodius) and a portable altar. These are copies of plaques found there http://www.numizmat.sk/projekty/?projekt=163 , they could be used as an inspiration for symbols for the GM

  4. #164
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Thank you for your help guys!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  5. #165
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Icon5 [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    As the titles says we are interesting to gather VISUAL info of warfare tactic and army formations that the facions of our list used in 9th-11th centuries!
    What we need is to avoid speculations. So if any one has books with warfare tactics and images for those please post them here.
    CAUTION:
    The mod's time frame.
    Also NO OSPREY images allowed.
    Help us to provide the most accurate warfare mod in all times!
    Thank you all in advance...
    Your friend AnthoniusII.
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; November 21, 2011 at 05:43 AM.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  6. #166
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    The Norse (and in turn, early Rus) were well known for their love of the "Shield Wall" tactic - although it was not only a Germanic method of warfare. It has proven itself to be one of the most formidable and useful defensive infantry formations. It has been in use since the classical era and is even still somewhat used in modern times. You can read more about it here.

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  7. #167

    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    "Boar snout" ,Norse (Rus) infantry wedge, to destroy "Shieldwall".
    Last edited by absinthia; November 22, 2011 at 02:53 AM.

  8. #168
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    All Rus infantry units in TGC have shieldwall abillity.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  9. #169
    intel's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    http://translate.google.pl/translate...5.html&act=url

    ... It is difficult to know the technique of military and military history of the early Slavs, because written sources give us only a few names, and a pair of valuable, but inaccurate news of the tribes settled on the Vistula and the Oder River right tributaries. Mentions of other Byzantine writers, distant from the Polish, the tribes prove that to them is not walking poychał combative spirit, but the invasions of other plmion.
    Attacking the Germanic peoples, Obodrzyci, Lutycy, Ranowie not have won the battle array to produce despite the incessant fighting since the days of Charlemagne. Proposed theories of Norman or Połabskiego origin of the ruling and their teams must be rejected. Please accept this theory najaprawdpodobniej that make up the current Slavic peoples in the second and third centuries AD ended their nomadic life and settled. Villages were founded on the natural and topographic names. Conducted in their cultivation in the tribal community and district.

    Several centuries later, around the fifth in the villages are formed through evolution, with its owner, whose name is commemorated in the names like the Czechs, Zębocin.
    Slavs armed forces relied on ancestral relationships (like other peoples), they survived until the beginning of August the Polish state. It meant that warriors fought under the leadership of the eldest of the family, and later przywˇdzcy village or town. Mobilized to send flagella method, verbal commands appear in a specific place and time. The host received wyprawić flagellum was obliged under the threat of further punishment. Zawiodomieni they moved to the assembly point tional clusters. Armament was very different, depending on wealth. It consisted mostly of arches and stone axes pczątkowo, later appeared in August bronze and iron swords, through contacts with the culture Hallstadzką. They could also be oszczey, originally used for hunting. Peaks were armor or shields long, wood or skˇrzanae, heavy. Collected in August around the characters, such as bars with figures on szcycie, or on those canvases painted poles with runic characters.

    Tactic has been used rather prymitwna, gathered around the sign fought indiscriminately, przeciwnka overcome their abundance rather than finesse. Germans, in which each family was getting ready to battle wedge and stood side by side in their setnictwie, and in their communities setnictwa tribal (Gau). The front line of the army presented the shape of the gear. Germany by that even in the XI contemptuously called them "infirm, only armed multitude crowded zgrajami"
    Therefore, only fought among themselves, the families of the clans, or tribes of tribes (Nestor of Nowogrodzianach). Only the experience of fighting the first Piast (those before Mieszko I) with napierajacymi marchiami of them have taken over the German decimal system. This gave instant result in a rapid conquest of other tribes Polish
    Słowain tactic obviously changing, there's no doubt. It's a little written sources - Byzantine, German and others.
    Let's be honest - Modern did not have a great appreciation for the Slavic art of war. They wrote that the attack mass infantry, poorly armed anyway (sometimes very weak). They use bows and archers are good (for example Thietmar).
    Slavs perfectly oriented in the field, they knew many faults, hills, dangerous places such as swamps, etc. Most of the original inhabitants of the forests and meadows just fought in a way (with the ambush, using the terrain), such criteria chose the place for fortified Grod, etc.
    Some historians write that also dressed in a truly ghostly figures that look like the enemy terribly, in a tinted wood and leather armor, helmets ended in horsehair, with shields of various shapes and designs from the many-armed crosses and dots ending with the flames, images of animals (horse, bison).
    Descriptions of Germanic and Slavic clashes with the time of the dawn of the Middle Ages admit that our ancestors were very brave but poorly armed (wooden maces, catapults, spears), which makes up for with courage and abundance.
    In the Middle Ages used the Slavic meals, for example, did the Byzantines and the Germans fighting in Italy. But the Slavs were not in these wars and more important and prevailing opinion that they are good as auxiliaries, light and flexible. Besieged cities was not our good stroną.Jednak if our ancestors had already joined and cooperated in the war with such Avars, Bulgars and Arabs, it was a mortal danger to their enemies.

    Already the same attitude towards the better-armed opponents Getting to be able to respect, but over time as the beginning: they were not militantly oriented people who learned martial arts from the wandering tribes of Germanic, possibly the eastern (Hungarians, Avars), so with the advent of medieval Slavs August enhances posture "I would like someone else does not, I will not let her move." This is aggravated by the German expansion in the Elbe area, more and more potent compounds according to the state and realize that it just lands inhabited by the Slavs are often the object and purpose of the migration of other peoples (fertile land, plenty of water trails, lighter than in Jutland and Scandinavia the winter .. ..)
    It is not the thesis that the Slavs fought mainly on foot. Well from where I would have taken at the end of this cult Polish horse, white horses złotogrzywki pagan, etc. Location enough sayings (the horse with a range to what is ..., end has four legs and a stumble in August, you need something to keep in check, etc.), whence many place-names (Konin, Kobylniki, Odrzykon, stallion ...) Even the source of Byzantine and Slavs even inform the exported horses!! We know for example,. RŘgen was available from both the navy and infantry and cavalry perfect (and what kind of on a wooded island ride?) Composition hanging horseshoes and horses' skulls on homes? This all proves that the horses were not only seen as antagonistic but szacunkeim and used in battle. For example gontyna Trzyglowa in Szzecinie it received a herd of white stallions but also ritual insignia which skaldaly August: saddle, harness, sword and spear. In the end no such wymysliby czegś fascinated people fighting on foot.
    So it takes until the Czech Republic and Poland later baptized in order to avoid further invasions and to ensure the equal status of the state in Latin Europe.
    When it comes to Scandinavian influence, they were strong around VIII / XI century in the lands of northern Rus', Novgorod the Great, during the assimilation took over their warengˇw Slavs fighting style, but after a confrontation with ces. Byzantine started to use tens and hundreds on the model of empire.
    For now, much to the beginning ...


  10. #170
    alien_t's Avatar В Съединението е Силата
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    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    I guess you have all needed info about Bulgarians, since it's available in the preview thread?
    Bulgaria: Total War - Mod For M2TW
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    "...We are Bulgarians and and all suffer from one common disease [e.g., the Ottoman rule]" and "Our task is not to shed the blood of Bulgarians, of those who belong to the same people that we serve" - Gotse Delchev, Collective memory, national identity, and ethnic conflict: Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian question, Victor Roudometof, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002, ISBN 0275976483, p. 79.

    "The Bulgarians, these are the people, who had everything they wished for. A nation, where the one who buys the nobility with the blood of the enemy receives titles..." - Magnus Felix Ennodius, description of battle at Margus
    (Morava) river 505 AD





  11. #171

    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    I've found that there were two (or 3) main tactics of horse archery:
    -more static, "shower of arrows". Well armoured horsmen were shooting, rather without move. They were shooting rapidly but without aiming (and often without maximal power). Then they fought in close combat. This tactic was prefered by Persians, Mamluks and Muslims in India (so maybe also Fatimids/Abasids and Sicily?). It was effective against lightly armoured enemies with low morale.
    -nomad type of horse archery. HA were getting close, they were shooting with aiming and with better power. They were often shooting in move (for ex. Cantabrian circle) and withraw if enemies were too close (cause of their worse melee equipment)
    And maybe third type similar to first but with lower speed of shooting and better accuracy (Bizantine)
    Will you represent these tactics in TGC?

  12. #172
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    Thanks wareg!
    We have something similar in mind!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  13. #173

    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    Can you describe how will It work? And what factions will use particular types?
    My thoughts: the easiest to do is accuracy and power. Range is more problematic: shorter range for nomad tactic units (like close bow HA in BC) will induce HA to come closer to enemy but all army with 50-70m range...
    'Hit and run' only for steppe HA I think. It will help also with 'back shot' which should be specific only for nomads (of course It won't work If player insist to withdraw 'shower of arrow' HA type of unit manually).
    Do you think that Is It possible do increase speed of shot for 'shower of arrow' HA?

  14. #174
    Alucard31's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Hello guys!

    With total respect to this mod, I must suggest that according to the newest researches I know, the slavic state called "Greater Moravia" ("Megale Moravia" in Constantine VII's De Administrando Imperio) is located around the ancient Sirmium. Certain researchers (hungarian ones: Imre Boba, Gyula Kristˇ and other ones: Segna Toru, M. Eggers) suggest that Greater Moravia was "somewhere" in the south, at the rivers Morava/Sava/Danube or at the Maros/Kőr÷s/Tisza.

    These researchers also state that the northern slavic state which is discussed here was called "Lesser Moravia".

    This is no offence. I just thought you may be interested about this

  15. #175
    Alucard31's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Sorry, I meant "Great Moravia" and "Little Moravia". It's been a time since I practiced English last, so sorry for mistakes To sum it up, they think the northern state in nowadays Czech Republic was called "Little Moravia", because it wasn't as old as "Great Moravia" in the south.
    Last edited by Alucard31; December 08, 2011 at 01:13 AM.

  16. #176
    Majkl's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Actually there are more Moravians than one. Our scholar calls Great Moravia simply Morava or Stara Morava. Magna Moravia as mentioned in byzantine sources can also mean "Morava far away" or "Morava Superior" because it was a lot farer than Morava which was e.g. in Todays Serbia.
    By the way I do not respect Hungarian scholars because of their subjectivity in history. They also tought us that Hungarians came into Danubian basin as first and it was nunpopulated etc. Such statements are ridiculous. Do not want to make some flame here or something but it all depends on translation of word "Magna". Ones translate it as "great" another as "far" and so on.

  17. #177
    Alucard31's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    I have to debate with some statements of yours, Hungarian scholars are not that evil kind of bastards in general Including myself, even if I'm just about to be a historician. But this is truly OFF-topic; I just wanted to mention that point of view above. But of course, I'm interested in other solutions as well, like the one you've mentioned.

  18. #178
    Majkl's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Well I am not in position to judge magyar on any other scholars cuz I do not know them. Just saying what I experienced. No hate at all.

  19. #179
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    There is quite a debate among historicians concerning the location of the slavic state from the IX. century known to us as Great Moravia (actualy this name was first used by the Roman emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitos more than 40 years after the state cease to exist). The above mentioned theory of Boba and others is supported by some statements in the Frankish conterporary sources (however, Frankish chroniclers did not necesary have to be 100 % accurate about the geography of the areas where they may never had been). One of the main argument reversing this theory is that acording archeological research area around Syrmium seems to be very spearly populated in IX. century in contrary to the area of Todays Moravia and Western Slovakia.

    Off topic: I myself have a great respect to every scholar no matter what nationality is he. Unfortunately, I must also admitt that I experinced the unwillingness of some Hungarian scholars to accept the clear evidence supporting the contradictional theory. However, I do not want to judge Hungarian scholars in general neither to say that they are all evil kind of bastards

  20. #180
    Alucard31's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    It is true that the supporters of this theory don't have too much archeological evidences for it So this is just a theory so far. However, there are analogies since there were two Serbias and Croatias as well. OFF: I also don't want to protect some of the Hungarian scholars; sometimes they have weird theories But this can be true for other countries as well
    Last edited by Alucard31; December 10, 2011 at 10:45 AM.

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