[Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia,Serbia, Anciliaries and titles.

[AnthoniusII]

That's good news.
I could offer you help but I'm learning

Then keep practising...We will need help in to the future too!!!

[DUX CRUATORVM COGIT]

Then keep practising...We will need help in to the future too!!!

Haha, oke I should try to get it sooner!
Just for this great mod, it must be on top for this effort.

[DUX CRUATORVM COGIT]

I can't wait for beta, how will be full release than.?.?.

[BarnicleBill1]

Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta I could care less, and letter of Greece will do

[BarnicleBill1]

*any

[DUX CRUATORVM COGIT]

We want a skinner to create several armor parts textures like sword scabbards, bow quivers boots etc ...
These parts will be used to create several units for Roman rebel soldiers, Bulgaria and Servian ones plus few more Islamic units.
If anyone interests please contact me via pm to give him/her more details and visual references.

Will be need for creating more Croatian units?
In which program your working it Milkshape 3D?

[Majkl]

Sorry for ressurecting old topics but If Moravian roster is not done yet but I feel like this might be interesting. All those finds are from Eastern Slovakia.
Some symbols on ceramics, ring and arrowhead.

Some weird ass writing. Could not find any explanation.

Two beautiful swords.

More symbols from ceramics. Simple cross is much older I believe. Those double crosses are mostly from 10th century onward.

One more weird ass writing, ring and symbols on ceramics. Also arrowhead.

Even more symbols plus one "decoration" from cairn(mound?)

[AnthoniusII]

Thank you my friend.
Luckily we have not yet complete the Moravian Roster and more luckily we have such swords in our armory!
We can try to use those images to create shield paterns because now we use placeholders for them from other slavic rosters.
Thank you again!

[AnthoniusII]

This thread re-activated because Great Moravia will be next to do.
Remember only links of images allowed.

[AnthoniusII]

Since the lack of info that I was promised to have about a final GM roster I will start based on OP made by Mattheus in this thread creating a basis that could be under easy changes in the future.
I have recieved Paleologos' shileds and i have also Matthaeus' and Leif Erikson's original material to make a 12-14 unit roster.
What ever changes will be required for the final result will be added in the end just before the TGC's closed beta release.
The next step will be Serbians, next AOR units, the finall Islamic rosters (making their material less heavy and more compact ) and finally THE FINALL TWO Bulgarian rosters.

September has come...Let's the races begin!

[matija191]

Serbs from Skylitzes chronicle:



Very lightly equipped, only two of them have shields, two have bows and arrows, four of them are mounted, the reast are armed only with stones.No one has any protection, not even the helmets, including the commanders on the horses.

Something from neighbouring Dioclea:

Seal of archont Peter (970.-990.)


Saint George in chain-mail shirt, armed with spear and sword.No helmet and no shield.Description based on this.

Seal of king Bodin (1082.-1099.)


Spear and shield.Maybe even some sort of boy armor.

Seal of king George (first half of 12th century)


Spear and kite shield.Most likely body armor of unknown origin.

[AnthoniusII]

I agree the term "heavy" was difererent from nation to nation.

[Mamlaz]

Serbs from Skylitzes chronicle

That is because the author is depicting a cliff ambush which depicts the Serbs throwing rocks downhill as the main theme.

You will notice that most of the manuscript does not depict any sidearms or sheathed weapons but just the weapon being used or carried in the image, meaning the soldiery in the image do not have swords or spears or other weapons because the author of the depiction is depicting them while throwing stones in an ambush and does not depict their actual "regular" weapons at the same time.

[Majkl]

Sharing with you older study about Great Moravian warfare in Slovak archaeology magazine. Most of what is written there has probably been posted here by me during last years but still, it is written in english and includes all the important ingo I guess. I have not read it yet.

http://www.cevnad.sav.sk/aktivita_1_...gia_1982_1.pdf

[AnthoniusII]

It would be nice to have Moravian unit names for levy archers , ellite spearmen like Bulgarian roster has:
Selqni
Strelci
Kopienosci
Shtitonosci
Mechonosci
Leka Konnica
Bolqrska Konnica
Elitni Strelci
Elitni Kopienosci
Elitni Mechonosci
Chigot
Bagaini
Bagatur
Bolqri
Tarkan
even if some names would sound similar...

[Majkl]

I wish I could provide any help but there is none. This is not my field of expertise but as far as I know, you will not find anything like that. Unit names are too mundane to appear in any written records. Even if they do appear, I guess they would be no different from croatian/bulgarian/serbian terms. I mean, even thousand years later I as a Slovak have no problem understanding croatian or any other slavic terms used in game already. Only some terms used to denote nobles have been preserved but those are already used for Croatia. Vitez, Druzhina, Velmoze etc. all are quite panslavic terms.

I know you guys are looking for historical accuracy but if you asked me, I would be allright with generic english terms that you used in mod so far. Or perhaps you could use similar terms to croatian one, since historically I believe they were very similar and then add adjective Moravian/Moravske or something like that. However, I am not sure what declination looked like back in the 10th century.

I will keep looking but I am pretty sure I will find nothing specific to moravian state.

Post scriptum: As I understand Moravian roster is still WIP. Though spearman, swordsman and light cavalry use one set of similar skins/textures that appears to be moravian specific/thematic. Not sure if I am right, I only played a little bit. However, if such skins were planned for noble/elite units of Moravian roster I have to say they are very beautiful. If you guys could finish roster with this "theme" for Moravians, that would be dream. Really beautiful and (imho) quite accurate units. I am glad that you taken into account my older suggestions and gave units differently coloured textiles/tunics such as blue, green, brown along common white.

[Majkl]

Soldier, miles;

Generic terms for soldier, lat. miles is basically same in western slavic languages.
Slovak – sg. vojak, pl. vojaci
Czech – sg. voják, pl. vojáci
Polish – žolnierž, it seems however, that literary language also knows term wojak;
– slovak and czech languages also have žoldnier/žoldnéř, however its literal meaning is mercenary and it is obviously derived from „žold“ (fr. solde, lat. solidus) which means payment for (military) service. As such it is pretty modern word, with no ties to early medieval period.

Considering that west slavic languages has experienced linguistic change around 14th century in which suffix –in changed to –ak (such as Slovenin to Slovak; Pražan to Pražak, Moravan to Moravák) it is safe to assume that initial form was voj-in. Indeed, I have browsed dictionary of old church slavonic and I found word voin (pronounce same as vojin) with meaning of soldier. Safe to say that plural form would be vojini, such as plural of Sloven is Sloveni, plural of Moravan is Moravani, etc.

I consider term vojin/vojini (english spelling voini)suitable as generic term for soldiers. It could be used for basic military unit of Moravian roster, especially spearman or axeman, since axe and spear was most widely used weapon by not noble men. In such case I would use this term for axeman, since I have another one for spearmen.

Archer, bowman;

Generic term for archer is not same in western slavic languages.
Slovak – lukostrelec
Czech – lukostřelec, but also lučištník
Polish – łucznik, but also strzelec

It seems that Polish term is same as Russian. It is also one word. In Slovak and Czech, it is compound word that is created from two different words, one is luk, whcih means bow and second is strelec, which means shooter. Now both luk (bow) and strelec (shooter) can be found separetely in dictionary of old church slavonic, however I did not found them as one word. Both luchnik and lukostrelec have exactly same meaning. It is hard to decide which is more suitable. However, I have seen that Bulgarian faction already have strzelci which is just different spelling of Slovak and Czech strelci and Rus faction have luchniki. So in order to distinguish them a bit I would use lukostřelec, plural lukostřelci (english spelling lukostrzelci). I am pretty sure that this spelling is anachronistic and was probably not used back then.

Spearman;

Generic term for spearman is once again different in west slavic linguistic area.
Slovak – kopijník
Czech – kopiník
Polish – włócznik

Slovak and Czech term is basically same with small difference in pronounciation. Polish is absolutely unrecognizable to me (I am Slovak). Czech and Slovak words are derived from term kopia which means spear, kopiník then is warrior that fights with spear. Once again, Polish language do know word kopia which has the same meaning as in Slovak and Czech, that is, long weapon with sharp point at the top – spear. Although, historically used for lance as well. Dictionary of old church slavonic do know word kopia and it was used in relation to warfare, it also know term kopinnik. In my opinion, term kopijník would be best used for moravian spearmen, plural form would be kopinníci. However, once again, this could be quite modern spelling, no idea what difference there would be in 9th century.

Swordsman

This is a tricky one. Term used for swordsman is same among Slovaks, Czechs and Poles, however that is loan word from old? German schirmen – to fight, to defend.
Slovak – šermiar
Czech – šermíř
Polish – szermierz

It is hard to say if there ever was a common term for swordsman. There is common word for sword – meč, měč, miecz, that is similar in other slavic languages as well (see mieczonoszci – literally sword wielder in bulgarian roster). This word is attested in dictionary of old church slavonic as well. Meč is thought to be derived from gothic language so it seems there might have been term for swordsman but I can not find any. Closest term to this that I found in czechoslovak group of languages is zbrojnoš, which literal translation would be weapon/armorwielder; the one who wields arms/armor; zbroj – arms/armour; noš – from nosiť, menaing to carry/wield something. It is same as in bulgarian meczonoszci, which is the one who wields sword. Zbrojnoš is attested in late medieval period, where it had meaning of a servant that taken care of lords arms and armour. It is questionable if it was used in early medieval period. If it was, it probably had a bit different meaning, similar to armed man. But again, just my speculation. In contemporary sense it could be understood as man that „carries arms“ or man that „handle arms“ for someone else, like in medieval sense. Although it is not attested for early medieval period I could see zbrojnoš (eng. spelling zbrojnosz) being used for some lesser noble unit, perhaps dismounted version of moravian nobles armed with swords or something similar. Another good term would be oděnec, which is attested from 14th century. Its literal translation would be „the one covered in clothing“, however that clothing would in this sense mean armor. Since cheapest and most availabale armor was made of thick layer of cloth, basically padded armor, oděnec would be person dressed in such armor. Such padded armor was used in Great Moravia by (probably) majority of fighting men, it is highly possible that this word was already known, even though it might have a bit different spelling. Finally, there is also word pěšec/pěší. Literal meaning of this word is „the one who moves by his own foot/ the one who walks“. See also bulgarian roster „peshatzi“ which is just different spelling of same word.

Generic term for (mounted) nobles

There is numerous terms in czecho-slovak linguistic group that could be used for mounted noble warriors but all of them are basically panslavic terms. I will not include polish because I am not sure which terms are used there in this case. There is general velmož (czech), veľmož (slovak). Literal translation would be big man in sense of property, fame or combat abilities. Their latin equivalent would be maiores, nobiles viri or optimi viri. There is also víťez (czech) and víťaz (slovak) but also witeź (in polish) and similar exist among lusatian sorbs. In czecho-slovak languages it literally means winner, the one who overcome someone but it is obvious shift in meaning. In older times víťaz was used for mounted warrior, in slovak folk stories it is synonymum to hero. Since there is Vitezovi in croatian roster, I guess you are aware of the term. Another term used for noblemen who owned extensive property was Kmeti. This term was later used in Přemyslid Moravia all the way until the end of 12th century. It is possible that all those terms were to some degree synonymous however it is impossible to tell due to lack of more extensive historical records. I think I have seen terms such as Vitezove and Velmozhe already in use for some factions. In such case I would use term Kmeti for heavy cavalry mounted unit of moravian nobles, who were upper strata of social ladder. Especially since I have not seen it used in mod for other slavic factions yet. You could also use Velmože if for some reason Kmeti was not suitable.

Some other words (possibly) suitable to use

Javelinmen

Generic term used until modern days for javelin/short spear is oštěp/oštep. It is derived from old slavic ščepati (to split something, usually from wood) and is attested in medieval czech language (15th century), also in slovak dictionary from 18th century. Older version would probably be oščep. In contemporary language it is used to describe olympic javelinmen as well; contemporary plural version is oštěpáři (czech) and oštepári (slovak). It is possible that early medieval period knew this word and spelling would be something similar to oščpaři/oščepari. Again, spelling is my specualtion.


Cavalrymen/raider

Czech and Slovak languages both know term jězdec/jazdec. It is derived from jazdiť (to ride) > jězdec, jazdec (the one who rides horse). Term jazdiť (to ride) is already mentioned in old church slavonic and medieval czech language. Dictionary of old czech lnguage also knows term konník which is derived from koň (horse); konník then is horserider. Evolution of both words is basically same, except one is derived from jazda (to ride) and the other from kon (horse). Since I saw you used konnik and konnica for bulgarian and croatian? rosters, I would use jezdec/ plural jezdci for cavalryman other than nobles in moravian roster. Perhaps for some light cavalry.

Moravian roster could look as follows:

spearmen – kopinníci
axemen – voini
archers – lukostrzelci
javelinmen – osztepari (to keep english spelling simple)
light cavalry – jězdci

lesser nobles/dismounted nobles – zbrojnoši (zbrojnoszi for english spelling)
heavy cavalry/nobles – kmeti
general retinue – družinníci (plural of druzhina, again contemporary spelling, in english druzhinnitsi)

Possible tweaks:

Now I see that most factions have basic and „elite“ version of most of units. For example spearmen and some sort of heavy spearmen, swordsman and some sort of heavy swordsman, etc. In such case I would either use term starší, which literally means older/senior (just like Rus units in other mods). Older people were more experienced, wealthier and had better social position, meaning they were usually better, more experienced and armed warriors as well. That is general tendency among all nations and Moravia is not exclusive to that.

So, it could look like that:

heavy spearman – starší kopinníci
heavy axemen – starší voini
etc.
altlernatively, you could use basis of word oděnec instead of starší, which would mean „armored“
So, it would look something like:
heavy (armored) spearmen – odení kopinníci
heavy (armored) axeman – odení voini
etc.

If you would rather use term starší (older) for more advanced units, then oděnec could be used for separate unit of heavy swordsman or axeman.
Also, axeman is kind of specific case. Term for axe is sekyra, derived from sek (to cut), however sekyrník/sekyrníci is kinda odd. It is known in contemporary czech and slovak languages although not very common, so it feels kinda weird. However it is in accordance with other similar terms. Spear–spearman–spearmen > kopija–kopijník–kopijníci. If linguistic evolution was same, then more appropriate term for axeman would be: axe–axeman–plural axemen > sekyra–sekyrník–sekyrníci. However, this is based on analogy. Medieval czech languages has more words for axe beside sekyra. There is also náseč (hard to translate), bradatice (bearded axe), kladnice (derived from kláda, log). However, sekyra is i think most widely used and general term. In Slovak it is sekera. There is also topor, such as in Russian but inczechoslovak languages it only mean wooden part of axe, handle.

Summa summarum

My first proposal of moravian roster would look something like this:

Freeman (lower social strata of population) constituting bulk of army

spearman – kopinníci
axemen – voini (alternatively sekyrníci)
archers – lukostřelci
javelinmen – oštepári
light cavalry – jězdci

more expeirenced (better armed) units

medium/heavy spearmen – odení kopinníci
medium/heavy axeman – odení voini (alt. odení sekyrníci)
medium/heavy archers – odení lukostrzelci
medium/heavy javelin – odení oštepáři

Noblemen (upper social strata) constituting core of army

heavy cavalry – kmeti
kings/knyaz retinue – družinníci


My second (and preferred) proposal of moravian roster:

Freemen (lower social strata of population) constituting bulk of army

spearman – kopinníci
axeman – sekyrníci
archers – lukostřelci
javelinmen – oštepáři
light cavalry – jezdci

more experienced, more wealthy and experienced units but still part of lower social classes,

medium spearmen – starší kopinníci
medium axemen – oděnci
medium archers – starší lukostřelci
heavy axemen – pěšaci (alternatively pěší kmeti [dismounted kmeti])

elite/noble units (higher social strata of population) constituting core of army*

heavy cavalry – kmeti
knyaz/dux retinue – družinníci

*similar to Croatian roster, where you included praetorianes (which represent byzantine influence I guess) you could include one version of east Frankish heavy cavalry in order to represent frankish influence but also to make roster a bit more heterogenous. Historians assume that at least in knyaz retinue there were some warriors of german/east frankish origin, though just minority. That would make 10 moravian units + 1 frankish heavy cavalry and there is a decent roster. Together with mercenaries it could suffice. If not I could perhaps find something yet.

Post scriptum:
If you will like my proposal, I could try to write some short description of units as well. I personally prefer second proposal, since it makes a bit less repetitive. However, there is possibility to make some tweaks if you had any idea.
Most of these terms I used in my proposal are quite easily understandable for contemporary Czech and Slovak people and I humbly believe they would be – with some little difficulties – understandable to people living in Great Moravia as well, even though spelling might have been different. But again, you will never find exact spelling and compound words in historical records so I guess this is best you can get unless some linguist with specialization in this period show sup and put som work into it.

I will keep looking and perhaps tweak some stuff in future.

[AnthoniusII]

A huge Thnak you that was realy usefull !!!!
A consept of Moravian soldiers :

Exept no5 the rest will be in the roster , no5 with more "modern"helmet also!
I will use Rusichi material that fits to create Slavs generaly and then by recoloring textures, unique shields and adding unique per faction units will complete:
Great Moravia
Serbia
Rebel Slavs
Slavs under Rus and mercenary ones.