[Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia,Serbia, Anciliaries and titles.

[Bagatyr]

yes, but there is hard possibility of serbs having any roman troops. if you ask me there is no possibility of such things. especially cause serbs fought in clandestiono, and on hilly lands, mostly ambush battles. not to say how romans thought of serbs as barbarians.

as for franks, they are many times mentioned in later serbian history as mercenaries. that's why i wanted to include them, but not as an aor, rather as mercs. still, they are called in later history as fruzi, which is very wide term.

doesn't seems to me as a very good argument for using franks.Avar,croat,magyare or pecheneg seem much more historical acurate ...

[Hrobatos]

I also think Franks shouldnt be available to Serbs, Pechanengs, Bulgarians, Magyars and even Normans seem as much better options regarding that
but it should be added that such plain merc units arent included in other rosters either, except for special units like Varangians and such

[phoenix[illusion]]

doesn't seems to me as a very good argument for using franks.Avar,croat,magyare or pecheneg seem much more historical acurate ...

croats never served in serbian army, so as pechenegs or magyars. only acceptable are avars

I also think Franks shouldnt be available to Serbs, Pechanengs, Bulgarians, Magyars and even Normans seem as much better options regarding that
but it should be added that such plain merc units arent included in other rosters either, except for special units like Varangians and such

yup, normans are quite good option. considering that diokleans used to fight with normans. but if you ask me, it would be better includid travunians, zachlumians and others as mercs.

[Hrobatos]

well they couuld, just like Neretvanians be local AOR, available to anyone who helds the region, but indeed they are good idea

[AnthoniusII]

Consdering your sugestions we took out swordmen and replaced them
with archers.
Ok then here is a sugestion of army roster.

Peasantry units.
1/ Levy archers : no armor
2/ Levy spearmen : no armor , leather/padded armors as upgrade.
3/ Levy javelinmen : javelins and axes , no armor.
Tribal units:
4/ Light horsemen :padded suits with javelins and axes as weapons.
5/ Spearmen:
Tier 1 :slavic spears and large wooden round shields ,axes as decorative weapons, padded armor or leather roman cuirasses, simple helmets.
Tier 2 : chain mails ,oval and round curved shields (roman influence) ,swords as decorative weapon.
6/ Cavalrymen lancers. (same as spearmen).
7/ Ellite archers (same as tier 1 spearmen).
8/ Ellite spearmen :
Tier 1 chain mail
Tier 2 lammelar/scale cuirasses (roman influence).
9/ Provincial Nobles : same as ellite spearmen .
Capital units:
10/ King's men (ellite swordmen)
Scale/lammelar cuirasses over padded or leather suits.
11/ Mounted King's men
12/ General's bodyguard.

In that way we have a multi role unit that fits better.
The archers can use axes as 2ndary weapons refering to their slavic heritage.

Some one mentioned broad shields.
Because my english are not so good does broad means this?


I mean shields like the spearmen in closest distance as we see them?

[absinthia]

yup, normans are quite good option. considering that diokleans used to fight with normans. but if you ask me, it would be better includid travunians, zachlumians and others as mercs.

Normans does not fit, as by 872 they had not even entered Italy.

[il_duce_!]

Consdering your sugestions we took out swordmen and replaced them
with archers.
Ok then here is a sugestion of army roster.

Peasantry units.
1/ Levy archers : no armor
2/ Levy spearmen : no armor , leather/padded armors as upgrade.
3/ Levy javelinmen : javelins and axes , no armor.
Tribal units:
4/ Light horsemen :padded suits with javelins and axes as weapons.
5/ Spearmen:
Tier 1 :slavic spears and large wooden round shields ,axes as decorative weapons, padded armor or leather roman cuirasses, simple helmets.
Tier 2 : chain mails ,oval and round curved shields (roman influence) ,swords as decorative weapon.
6/ Cavalrymen lancers. (same as spearmen).
7/ Ellite archers (same as tier 1 spearmen).
8/ Ellite spearmen :
Tier 1 chain mail
Tier 2 lammelar/scale cuirasses (roman influence).
9/ Provincial Nobles : same as ellite spearmen .
Capital units:
10/ King's men (ellite swordmen)
Scale/lammelar cuirasses over padded or leather suits.
11/ Mounted King's men
12/ General's bodyguard.

But, as I said, to the provincial nobles give swords, and to the King's men (on foot) 2h axes. Mounted King's men - lance + swords.

Elite archers: not so heavily armored, but they should have devastating stats with bows (especially in ambushes and on hard terrain). Give them also some nice stats in melee combat, axes and some round shields too. Make an upgraded version too, but still lightly armored in order to make them faster, easier to move.

Levy archers: they should have nice stats with bows, but should be extremely vulnerable in melee combat. Melee weapon - short sword.

Regarding merc units. Avar cavalry and people from the nearby regions and dalmatian coast: Zachumlia, Travunia....

[phoenix[illusion]]

Some one mentioned broad shields.
Because my english are not so good does broad means this?


I mean shields like the spearmen in closest distance as we see them?

broad in meaning large, wide. it could be any shield as i say, round, almond, triangular etc. but the point is in his large look. for example, broad round shield

Normans does not fit, as by 872 they had not even entered Italy.

yup, but they can be mercs in 11th cnetury

[AnthoniusII]

Oh this was what i ment when mentions large round curved surface shields..

[Wareg]

But, as I said, to the provincial nobles give swords, and to the King's men (on foot) 2h axes. Mounted King's men - lance + swords.

I think that It is good idea. Purely sword unit seems strange, swords/scramaseax/one handed axe was rather secondary weapon. Both peasants and elites used mainly spears (less often 2 handed axes) as primary weapon-although swords seem to be more impressive.
Avar mercenaries in 872? Weren't they almost fully asimilated with Slavic people? Avars as local noblemen, for Great Moravia, isn't It better idea?
Zachumlian/Travunian mercenaries-Is It sense to make such units? I mean If they were differently equipment comparing to antother Serbian units It is good idea but If they were identical-I think not...

[absinthia]

Normans does not fit, as by 872 they had not even entered Italy.

yup, but they can be mercs in 11th cnetury

well, it seems that the Normans entered Italy as mercenaries, in Lombard service, sometime between 999-1017. though it was not until 1020-1030 that Ranulf Drengot was granted Aversa as the first Norman fief in Italy. while in the 1040`s William de Hautewille was given Melfi.
this mod ends in 1071, at which time the Normans still were not much more than a mercenary army based at a few holdings in southern Italy.
i do believe it is still to early to recruit Normans outside Italy, and no reason why there would be a connection to Serbia or any other single nation in particular.

[Hrobatos]

2 handed axes you say? not really proven to be used in Western Balkans, in fact every axe finding is one handed

[Constantius]

Outstanding

[AnthoniusII]

I think that It is good idea. Purely sword unit seems strange, swords/scramaseax/one handed axe was rather secondary weapon. Both peasants and elites used mainly spears (less often 2 handed axes) as primary weapon-although swords seem to be more impressive.
Avar mercenaries in 872? Weren't they almost fully asimilated with Slavic people? Avars as local noblemen, for Great Moravia, isn't It better idea?
Zachumlian/Travunian mercenaries-Is It sense to make such units? I mean If they were differently equipment comparing to antother Serbian units It is good idea but If they were identical-I think not...

Let's see this sugestion from the Romans prospective that let us the most of writen details.
They did not describe extensive use of long axes (dual hand use) the way they did when they saw Rus! So as Matthaeus, NikeBG and Absinthia wrote some time ago , the use of such weapons/tools is certain. What is uncertain is the fact that some warriors became famous using such weapons. In real we could have dual axes serbians, Great Moravian longbowmen etc..
About swords. Sword was indeed a sighn of ellitism but in tribal kind of warriors the most expirient and those that participated in many wars/raids ,could find such weapons as spoils of war or by trade.
Absinthia has done a wonderfull "cheap" sword texture that could easily be
part of expirient warriors.
About leaf type shields.
It true that many people were influenced by Avars and their kite/leaf shields. But those kind of shields became to use in balkans later and rare even from Romans! The heavy Roman influence would delay the introduse of such shields to Serbians tat would adopted them later from Croatians that their west influences allowed them to have such a change.
For example for the same reason Bulgarians have no such shield in their armoury despite the fact that they will fight with Romans that use in rare occasions such shields.

well, it seems that the Normans entered Italy as mercenaries, in Lombard service, sometime between 999-1017. though it was not until 1020-1030 that Ranulf Drengot was granted Aversa as the first Norman fief in Italy. while in the 1040`s William de Hautewille was given Melfi.
this mod ends in 1071, at which time the Normans still were not much more than a mercenary army based at a few holdings in southern Italy.
i do believe it is still to early to recruit Normans outside Italy, and no reason why there would be a connection to Serbia or any other single nation in particular.

I agree.
Serbians could have other mercenaries unlocked from varius events.
So when Magyars will reach the lands near Serbia Magyar horsearchers could be available mercenaries side by side with Neretvani pirates that will be common mercs with Croatians or anyone that holds their lands.

[Wareg]

I mean general rule, for all infantry based armies in that time, not only Balkans.
Swords were mainly secondary weapon, take a look of Bayeux tapestry-most Thengs/Houscarls/Fyrdmen (all classes!) fight with spear although most have swords/scramasax. Less fight with 2 handed axes, least of them are swords.
So, in general-richer melee infantry had better swords, poorer-chepar kinds, but for almost all primary weapon was spear(rarely another pole weapon).

[NikeBG]

croats never served in serbian army, so as pechenegs or magyars. only acceptable are avars

What Avars? The mod starts in 872. The Avars had practically disappeared even in their own lands by then (or whatever might have remained would be too small and/or too assimilated to form an actual "Avar" military unit).

[AnthoniusII]

So :
Peasantry units.
1: Levy archers : no armor
2: Levy spearmen : no armor , leather/padded armors as upgrade.
3: Levy javelinmen : javelins and axes , no armor.
Tribal units:
4: Light horsemen :padded suits with javelins and axes as weapons.
5: Spearmen:
Tier 1 :slavic spears and large wooden round shields ,axes as decorative weapons, padded armor or leather roman cuirasses, simple helmets.
Tier 2 : chain mails ,oval and round curved shields (roman influence) ,swords as decorative weapon.
Ellite units:
6: Cavalrymen lancers. (same as spearmen).
7: Ellite archers (same as tier 1 spearmen).
8: Ellite spearmen :
Tier 1 chain mail
Tier 2 lammelar/scale cuirasses (roman influence).
Nobillity:
9: Provincial Nobles : same as ellite spearmen .
Capital units:
10: King's men (ellite swordmen)
Scale/lammelar cuirasses over padded or leather suits.
11: Mounted King's men
12: General's bodyguard.
Plus:
AOR Merc units:
1: Neretvani archers
Mercs through events:
1: Magyar horsearchers.
I think that they are enough for a small faction like Serbia with 2-3 starting regions.

We do not have the luxury of endless discusions. Our creators must have a basis that must be stable to work on.

[il_duce_!]

do what you think its right...

[absinthia]

Why are you insisting on so many units with swords? Thats not historical. At least give to the King's men long axes...No way that anybody but nobles could afford good swords.

which many units?
as far as i can see there are really only one type of unit that will use swords, while a few other elites has it as a decorative element of their social status/wealth.
and i wonder what is the historical basis for the "long axes" bodyguard, by which i guess you refer to 2 handed axes?

[AnthoniusII]

Only one unit on foot will have swords as primary weapon and that's
the King's men. I believe that their status (guarding the ruler) justify the swords. Also we can remove the swords as decorative weapons from levy spearmen and replace them with axes -just like Bulgarian ones have-.
Horsemen though if can afford a horse -expensive in obtain and in use-i think that they could afford low quality swords.
A warrior comming from a place with out extensive resourses and riches like the early medieval Serbia but that has chain mail or better armor ,sword would not be to much more to have.
On the other hand...north balkan warriors were to close to roman weapon workshops. If a paramoirion was cheap enough to allow local generals to arm their millitias (scutatoi for example) then why balkan traders would not be able to import such cheap swords to their countries?
Tell me if that is not logical.