[Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia,Serbia, Anciliaries and titles.

[AnthoniusII]

Thanks. We would like a possible 9-11th century 12-13 unit roster.
See our recruitment system to understand what we are looking for.
Peseant kind of units
Levies
Proffesional (if any)
Ellite
Nobles

King'smen
Bodyguard

[Bagatyr]

i'm doing some text about serbia before and during this period
it will be mostly based on first bulgaro-serbian war (presian's attack) and second (boris' attack)

the only source for this wars is records of Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos in few sentences .Do you have found more info ?

[phoenix[illusion]]

Thanks. We would like a possible 9-11th century 12-13 unit roster.
See our recruitment system to understand what we are looking for.
Peseant kind of units
Levies
Proffesional (if any)
Ellite
Nobles

King'smen
Bodyguard

well, problem is that serbia is low in resources of early middle ages. while period of nemanjic is quite full of historical sources, this period relies on three scrips: DAI, chronicles of priest duklja, frankish annals. so, for special units and so on, no real info, cause those sources are historical, not military. it can only be based on slavic roster. but i'll give you proposial.

Kopljanici (spearmen)
Sekiraši (axemen)
Strelci (archers)
Suličari (javelinsmen)
Praćkaši (slingers)
Krajišnici (borderland militia) - this one is doubtable. i only included them cause serbs used to have krajisnici in periods of nemanjic. so, do as you will
Konjica (light cavalry)
Družina (heavy cavalry) - although many doubt of druzina in serbia, roman emperor says about serbian "praetorians" i assume those were druzina
Kneževa garda (general's bodyguard)

possible AoR
Fruzi infantry (regular frankish infantry, merc.)
Fruzi cavalry (regular frankish cavanlry, merc.)
Mađarska konjica (magyar horsearchers)
Avarska konjica (avar cavalry)

also, check out what SonOfFire said, it has good point, but still nothing to be proved:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ok… this is my understanding from the books, and the discussions had...


In the “Dark Ages”… Serbs and Croats were still fairly similar.
Though as time progressed, the Croats had a larger Western European (due to Hungary and Venice)influence, while the Serbs had a larger Byzantine influence. Though the Serbian Coastal Duchies still had a significant Western influence due to Venice, as did the Northern regions…
The smaller Slavic tribes, as well as indigenous one was either becoming absorbed by, or affiliated with the larger more powerful Serbs and Croats… though at this point, there are still some varying degrees, but most have already been fully assimilated (by 920 is it?).

The core of the military was still the military retinue of the Zupans or Knez… which is though never given a name in South Slavic sources, can be assumed to be Druzina (Praetorians). These would be backed by a levy.
The bow was being used quite a bit by this point, with lots of archers fielded, though the javelin still had a place… as well as the Slav axe… though now the sword was no long a weapon only for the elite warriors, becoming more common place.

Heath states that the Druzina fought with Avar and Alan influence, that being sword (sabre) bow and lance.
This could be entirely possible… though I would state that I believe that the bow was secondary to the lance in warfare among them… as it seems though there is reference to Serbs using bows, it seems the preferred the lance, and kept the bow for supplementary combat. And as for the sabre… I think that Serbs favoured the straight doubled edged sword over the sabre… we know they used sabres later on with certainty, and they resembled the Byzantine paramerion… but at this earlier point… I can’t really say for sure… I would think they are a bit rarer…
Armour would be a mail corselet, or perhaps some lamellar. And of course, a shield.
But again, there was no uniform appearance… the better and more affluent the warrior, the better his kit.

The infantry would have started to be gathering a decent kit by this point… though there would still be large portions without armour. But I doubt that all would be un-armoured at this point…
Spears and other polearms, large shields, bows, javelins, knives and axes would be the most common weapons… but the more affluent warriors would have a corselet and helm with a sword possibly.

They seemed to excel at night fighting and ambushes, though at this later period, would still place armies on a field… usually drawn into 3 battles. With archers in the fore, only to retreat behind the cavalry once things got hairy…

*They also had access to siege technology at this point as well...

the only source for this wars is records of Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos in few sentences .Do you have found more info ?

well, i think that tibor zivkovic is using chronicles of priest duklja too. i'll check it out for you


BTW: can cyrilics be included in game? as for name of the units

[NikeBG]

Praćkaši (slingers)

If slingers are doable (I don't think we have animations for them, do we?), I'd recommend adding them to the Bulgarian roster as well, as "prashtnitsi" (old-Bulgarian/OCS) or "prashkari" (modern Bulgarian) (and I presume the Byzantines had them as well, considering even centuries later they were still a normal part of the armies in the Balkans (and elsewhere, especially the Iberian Peninsula)).

[absinthia]

there are slinger animation in Banzai`s animation pack and it seems it has been included, at least i found "MTW2_Fast_Slinger" in the skeletons.idx

as for cyrilics i think it would be impossible to read for most. though i believe for the Bulgar unit descriptions we used cyrilic writing of unit name at start of description.

[AnthoniusII]

Cyrilics in coding and scripting cause ctds.
But as we allready did we can have the unit names in cyrilics in their info text!
Slingers are doable but if i remember well their animation had some problems.
It would worth try it though.

[Hrobatos]

If you manage to do it, they should be added to Croatian roster as well, text mention slingers in Croatia even in 13. century

[AnthoniusII]

Actually any armies used slingers that time including Romans(Byzantines).
I will run some tests after the incoming previews and i will let all know.
Now i am very busy..
East Frankia needs only ingame pictures and some banner carriers 3d banners for its preview,Lombards are almost done.
And Vikings are in a WIP these and i will have to deal with Pechenegs that will use a lot of archers...
We ergently need some to help us make the texts for the Magyars ....

[diez]

about the slings,i have searched some things on slinging,and also build my own sling
anw there is a slinging style that is called byzantine,i will later post some vids with it.from a brief search i done it seems that it is inspired from a marble statue in constantinople but i am not sure...i ll try to find more info and tell if u find it useful.also "byzantines" used the staff slings...i also post some info about it,later cause now i am a bit busy.

sorry for double post:
here are some videos of the byzantine slinging style






about the staff sling:
it's a normal sling,but the knot and the loop are tied to a stick like this:


i have fired some stones with a staff sling,and its more powerful,have sligtly better range and accuracy,but takes more to reload.

some staff sling videos

[NikeBG]

Actually any armies used slingers that time including Romans(Byzantines).

Aye, most medieval armies (at least up till the 13th century or so) used slingers. Though I've read they were most popular in Southern Europe, especially the Iberian and Balkan peninsulas.

@diez - yeah, fustibali were used as well, especially in sieges. Though if Banzai's animation pack has animations for normal slingers by chance, I doubt he'd have staff-sling ones (otherwise, it would be unexpectedly awesome).

[AnthoniusII]

That "staff slinger" is actually kestroshendone used by Phillip's macedonians and later also by Medieval Romans as well.
The users were known as kestrosphendonitae.

[diez]

yeah thats right...
i got a bit confused by wikipedia,cause it mentions a portable hand trebuchet that can be used by 1 man called "cheiromangana" greek(i think)"χειρομάνγανα" ή "χειρομάνγανη"...do u have any information on these?

EDIT:sorry for the "ή" its the greek equivalent of the english word "or",but i was righting in greek.

[AnthoniusII]

Mangana/manganika [gr: Μάγκανα/Μαγκανικά] are the names of "artilery" machines in Medieval Roman empire.
Often refairing to scorpions,balistas and catapults.
Heiromangana [gr:χειρομάγκανα] are the portable versions of these "machines". Often portable balistas/scorpions like huge crossbows.

Simple versions of these kind of crossbows were also known as Tzagras.
Later-after 15th cent- the term tzagra was refairing to a long three spearhead infantry lance used by Stradioti mercenaries in order to kill easier knights.

[phoenix[illusion]]

On Bulgaro-Serbian war

Policies of neighboring rulers who were contemporaries of the archons Vlastimir is important to discover the causes that led to the Serbo-Bulgarian war, and establish links between the Balkan states. A statement of the Serbian-Bulgarian war that was chronicled by Constantine Porphyrogenitus is not sufficiently clear to resolve the issue. It is not clear whether the conflict was a result of the Bulgarian-Serbian relations, or spread to the southwest of Bulgaria, or was caused by the complex relations between Bulgaria and Byzantium in which Serbia of Vlastimir's time was involved as one of the allies of the Empire.

When Presijam became a Bulgarian khan, on force was still a peace treaty between Byzantium and Bulgaria signed 815/816. year, which was obligatory for this ruler. However, the contract was concluded for thirty years and in 845/84 it began to pass. On the throne of the Roman empire was five-year Michael III, and empire was controlled by his mother Teodora with the help of his brother, caesar Varde. Believing that Byzantium was withhout true leadership, the Bulgarian Khan began hostility to Byzantine possessions in Thrace, he sent troops into the area Nesta and Strimon against Slavic tribe Smoljans, who were kept as subjects of the Byzantine part of the border with Bulgaria.

Based on the analysis of several historical sources it seems that the Bulgarian-Byzantine clashes occurred around 846th year. War, waged in the border region of Thrace, didn't brought to Presijam any success, so it could be concluded that he then decided to try his luck to the west against Serbia. It remains an open question whether the Serbian archon Vlastimir before Presijam's breach was involved in the Bulgarian-Byzantine War, so that Presijam's campaign against Serbia was actually Bulgarian military response to Serbia's participation in the Bulgarian-Byzantine war on the side of the Byzantine Empire. According to a literal interpretation of Constantine Porphyrogenitus Presijam led war in an attempt to conquer Serbia, but the emperor's conclusion may well be a common phrase, and that the essence of the causes of war was unknown to himself.

Constantine Porphyrogenitus does not explain the details of which have occurred due to the Bulgarian-Serbian war, but only states that during Vlastimir, Bulgarians lived in peace with the Serbs, as close neighbors. "During government of the same Vastimir, Presijam, archont of Bugaria, made waragainst Serbia wanting to subjugate them, but three years of fighting he achieved nothing, but lost most of his army." If we possessed data who was the emperor's informant on these events, we would probably able to perceive more clearly the reasons for this war. On the other hand, the autopsy of the text allows the conclusion that Constantine Porphyrogenitus knew nothing of Byzantine foreign policy towards the interior of the Balkan Peninsula in the first decades of the ninth century. He was satisfied with the conclusion that the war accrued in order to subdue the Serbs.

In the light of known foreign policy events, especially those who were the backbone of the Byzantine-Bulgarian relations, it is not impossible that the Serbian archons Vlastimir, at the end of his reign, became an ally of Byzantium around 846th , when the Presijam, after the expiration of thirty years of peace, began hostility against the Byzantine possessions in Thrace. Three-year war with the Serbs should in this case dated back to last year Presijam's rule. So the war was conducted at 848 - 851st year, and came as a Bulgarian response to Serbian rapprochement toward Byzantium and possible participation in the Byzantine-Bulgarian War 846th on the side of the Byzantine Empire. Maybe this was the reason why Presijam deter his attack on Thrance, and attacked Serbia. Constantine Porphyrogenitus's carefully chosen words tried to show that the Bulgarians and the Serbs have always been under the rule of Emperor of Romans, which in the case of the Bulgarians did not correspond to the truth, and therefore could not be silent reasons for the outbreak of hostilities and the Serbian side of the Byzantine alliance. At the end of the chapter on emperor-author once again underlines that Serbian archons were never under the Bulgarian archons.

Since the Bulgarian state at the beginning of IX century developed into a first-rate European power, it would be interesting to interpret defeat that Presijam experienced over the three year war against the Serbs. An opponent of the Bulgarians were not disorganized tribe, but state entity which is able to successfully defend its borders. This effective resistance implies a very high military and administrative organization of the staff to present such a military effort. One should ask whether it is already in Serbia of Vlastimir's time the system of fortifications and military structures developed type with clearly defined military roles of zhupans

[phoenix[illusion]]

one more seal

seal of archont peter, IX century.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

i already posted peter's church, one of the oldest surviving christian church in balkans
what i wanted to add is that it was under bulgarian arch-episcopy (archdiocese), serbs gain their arch-episcopy (archdiocese) later under st.sava (rastko nemanjic)

[AnthoniusII]

one more seal

seal of archont peter, IX century.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

i already posted peter's church, one of the oldest surviving christian church in balkans
what i wanted to add is that it was under bulgarian arch-episcopy (archdiocese), serbs gain their arch-episcopy (archdiocese) later under st.sava (rastko nemanjic)

Funny it seams that "official" titles were in Greek (Roman) language.
The coin has the folloing on it:

ΠΕΤΡΟΥ ΑΡΧΟΝΤΟC ΔΙΟΚΛΙΑ (Σ) ΑΜΗΝ.

Translation:

Peter's lord of Dioklia. Amen

Nice.

[Bagatyr]

Nikola it is Presian not Presiam

[phoenix[illusion]]

@AnthoniusII

yes, some were greek titles. roman empire highly influenced serbs, so greek language was often used on coins, and administrative things. also those titles had slavic names, but non survived which were equal to archont. zhupan was lower title than archont, since zachlumia's zhupan was promoted to archont by rascian archont. zhupan should be equal to comes i think. but since highest title was archont, rulers of serbia, in order to gain control over serbia as officially, needed to get it from roman emperor, as the higher ranked title and by christian church. i'll write about that later. also grand zhupan appears later, which was maybe even archont. but i think that title of archont is actually knez (knjaz), and magna archont is grand zhupan.

titles are quite mess, since there was ban (vojvoda title), and satnik, in same time administrative titles and military titles

[Son of Fire]

I am not sure how "on topic" this is... but since titles and such are being mentioned...
I tend to advocate that the Serbian "Praetorians" wouid most likely have been called Druzina...

[NikeBG]

Nikola it is Presian not Presiam

And Persian and, I think, Prusian (or was that latter one only for Persian II?).