[Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia,Serbia, Anciliaries and titles.

[AnthoniusII]

Greetings i have the book " Tactica " from Byzantine Emperor Leo_vi_the_wise who reign was from 886 until 912,it has a real good part called "Chapter IV - On the Division of the Host and the Condition of the Officers''.do u wanted guys?

My friend thank you for your offer!+rep.
But Tactica is already the main basis of our creations for Romans.
See here: CBUR Thematic armies preview.

[dannyalex]

ok

[Bagatyr]

you have the bulgarian titles why they are not still added ?

[AnthoniusII]

you have the bulgarian titles why they are not still added ?

Because NikeBG makes a finall list. He is the best for this job.

[NikeBG]

I posted the updated file a few days ago (have only added the Chelnik in a separate post later on). Though I don't really have the time to separate them into the respective categories.

[diez]

some i found on the normans

Of the 'military' ranks, the lowest rank was the Sergens, a professional footsoldier, literally 'one who serves'. Above the Sergens was the Vavasseur, a soldier who equated to a squire, and who would have probably served a particular knight. The knight or Miles was the lowest of the military elite, a well equipped and well trained fighting man similar to the Saxon thegn or huscarl. Over the Miles was the Baron, the lowest rank of the nobility and a senior knight. Above the Baron was the Comes, or count, responsible for a whole district or county, much like a Saxon eolderman, and directly serving the duke. Before the conquest of Britain the highest rank amongst the Normans was Dux, or duke, and the title' of Duke of Normandy' was held by the English Kings from 1066 until 1204.

if u want to see the whole article here

[AnthoniusII]

Interesting...Thanks Diez!

[diez]

np,i ll post more in the future,if i find smth...
btw i found a detailed one on the rus ranks(social,military,titles etc.)
here for the article
u can click in the menu on want to see(military,social and others)to show more detailed info
in the last option it has a chart with the titles,and a little description next to,which is very useful

[NikeBG]

First post updated with Bulgar titles and ranks. Some Slavic ones could be added later on (f.e. I've also added the decurion/centurion/thousander etc).

[AnthoniusII]

First post updated with Bulgar titles and ranks. Some Slavic ones could be added later on (f.e. I've also added the decurion/centurion/thousander etc).

Exelent! +rep!

[diez]

Russian Military Ranks:


Knyazhnij muzh (literally, prince’s man)

• A member of senior druzhina, and also a boyarin. They joined the druzhina by own free will and could change masters at will. They were advisors of the prince and occupied the highest military and civil posts – posadnik, tysyatski, voevoda. Sometimes they had their own druzhina. [Petrov] Eventually became boyars. [Wikipedia]

Detskie (literally, children)

• Junior members of the druzhina in Ancient Rus. Performed various tasks for the prince, accompanied him in capacity of retinue and body guards. In the princely council, they did not take part except for military advice. Only freemen could become detskie. [Petrov] per Dal’ – detskie are otrok in the form of bodyguards and servants for the prince.

Otroki (literally, boys/lads)

• Junior members of the druzhina in ancient Rus, primarily court servitors of the prince, in contrast to detskie who were military members of the druzhina. In the otroki were also unfree people, slaves (kholopy). In duties otroki included service at the table of the prince, cleaning things and fulfilling various of his orders. In the council of the prince, otroki did not participate, except for military advice (see also detskie above). [Petrov] Dal’ – tsarist or princely servitors, pages, also servants or slaves generally

Gridin
Junior druzhinik, collectively "grid' " - the junior druzhina. The gridnitsa is the part of the palace where the grid' lived. From the end of the 12th cent., the term "grid' " disappears and in place of it appears "dvor" with the meaning of junior druzhina. Per Dal’ served as guards, bodyguards, army of the posadnik, tysyatski. [Petrov] Hryd (collective, also hryden), hryden (singular) - junior retainers of the prince in the Kyivan period. They performed military and administrative service. They had separate quarters at court. The word is found in the earliest chronicles and byliny and is probably of Scandinavian origin. [Encyclopedia of Ukraine]
Dal’ – bodyguard, guard, escort, army of posadnik, tysyatski, boyarskie deti, later same as zemstvo?

Dal-Vladimir_Dal


Social Russian Classes and Titles

• Princely class - descendents of the House of Riurik, eventually divided into greater and lesser princes.
• Service aristocracy - "muzhi," upper-class freeman, druzhina (military retinue), advisors and servitors (wergild 80 grivnas)
• Non-service aristocracy - old Slavic aristocracy and other wealthy personages (wergild 40 grivnas)
• Boyarstvo - the service and non-service aristocracy merge to form the boyar class. Term "boyar" in widespread use by the mid-10th cent.
• "Liudi" - middle-class freemen, business owners, landlords, estate-holders (also 40 grivna wergild).
• "Molodshie liudi" - lower-class freemen, urban artisans, employees, guild members (wergild only 5 grivna).
• "Smerdy" - rural peasants.
• "Zakupy" - half-free (not yet serfs), more of an indentured servant
• "Cheliad" - slaves, temporary and permanent.
  Ranks were fluid and poorly defined in this period.

S.M. Solov'ev from "Internal relations of Russian society from the death of Yaroslav I to the death of Mstislav of Toropets (1054-1228)."

• We, as before, meet the difference between the elder (starshaya) and junior (mladshaya) druzhina... The elder druzhina is also expressed by the word "boyars." In contrast to the elder druzhina, we find the term "junior guard". They can also be called molod', molodye, molodye liudi, and also gridej, grid'by. The members of the senior durzhina, boyars, were members of the princely duma (council), advisors. Included in the druzhina were his personal staff, who lived constantly with him - the so-called otroki (adolescents), detskie (children), and pasynki (stepchildren) who, naturally, were also divided into senior and junior. So, the druzhina consisted of three parts: boyars, grid'by, and pasynki. The third division of the druzhina, the sluzhnya, the princely servants (slugi), who lived with the prince in his home, in the north started to be called dvor, dvoryane. From the boyars, the prince appointed the tysyastki. The posadniks could sometimes be appointed also from the detskie.

• Senior druzhina - knazhnie muzhi, boyars, posadniks, tysyatski, voevodi
• Junior druzhina - detskie, otroki, gridin, deti boyarskie, dvoryane

[AnthoniusII]

Very helpfull Diez...It will take us some time to orginise and code all this info!

[Admiral Piett]

The wealth of knowledge the community has provided to this mod has been exquisite!

[gogo t]

Zhupan is lower rank then Komit. He was governor ot the so colled Zhupi \little villages\
It was like that
The empire was separated to provinces called Komitati, Komits were governors of the Komitati
The komitati were spearated in to smaller Zhupi, with Zhupan governors

[NikeBG]

According to Galahad's list, the Duklyan Presbyter "defines the komitat as a zhupan, who leads the bans/voevodes, which themselves lead 7 centurions, who administer justice and collect taxes for the ban. The ban was subordinated to the komita, who's subordinated only to the king." But, true, since those reports aren't explicitly about Bulgaria, I'll remove the zhupan part.

[AnthoniusII]

We can use Komit as millitary rank (like Comes) and use Zhupan as civilian title like Dux or something. Could a city ruler have the title Zhupan of Bitola for example?
Also honor titles like "hero" or "king's warrior" can be used as anciliary ones.
For example a man honored by the emperor could have the title excuvitoras (like the unit) meaninghis high rank authority given by the emperor himself.
Officials had this title in Italy ...

[gogo t]

No, no, no... Komit of province- ok, but Zhupan is slavic title left from the earlyer slavic organisation. Zhupan of small city- OK, but Komit- for big province onely

Its like that

Komit
|
Zhupan

for example... if EU is the empire, Bulgaria is Komitat and it's govenrer is Komit \President\, Sofia province is one of the Zhupis \Like Plovdiv province, Varna province....\ and it has Zhupan governor \the mayor\

[AnthoniusII]

So Komit can be used both as millitary rank and as city administrator's one right?

[gogo t]

So Komit can be used both as millitary rank and as city administrator's one right?

Yes it can

[NikeBG]

We can use Komit as millitary rank (like Comes)

I'm not too comfortable with that idea. The komit is a governor and like all governors in OGB (be they appointed by the ruler (tarkans, komits etc) or a member of the noble class (boils, bagains etc)) he holds not only administrative/financial, but also justicial and military authority, thus limiting him to a military rank would be somewhat strange. The same is with the tarkan, btw, which is why I moved him to the administrative list (you had put it as military rank).
In my opinion, zhupan and tarkan might be relatively the same thing (if we exclude the Duklyan's notes), considering they would both be subordinated to one of the 10 komits (as previously mentioned, Bulgaria in the times of Boris was divided to 10 komitats). One possible difference might eventually be that the tarkan is directly appointed by the ruler (i.e. it's an office), while the zhupan might simply be a leader of a small Slavic region, either from its own nobility or elected by its people (i.e. what used to be "knyaz" before the times of Krum). Though that's my speculation and it's a bit in a conflict in the compound form of "zhupan-tarkan" (which is usually considered to be a tarkan, appointed by the ruler to govern a former zhupanate/Slavic region). Anyway, considering we don't really have any explanations about those titles from the sources, only the various compound forms, it's all a big mess...