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Thread: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

  1. #1
    Matthćus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Icon3 [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    The Great Moravia



    The purpose of this thread is to get some more information from forum members about these people. I'm not entirely satisfied with amount of info that we have at this moment, and maybe there is someone out there who know more.

    New topic to keep it separated from main thread where any potentially productive discussion or information would be lost in mass of all other comments.

    So anyone who knows anything or is willing to contribute, please post here.
    help us in making Moravian faction truly great.

    Now to be concrete, we need:

    • constructive advices for faction roster / army organization
    • propositions about unique units
    • propositions of unique buildings (if any)
    • list of names used for faction
    • faction symbol, advice on flags
    • anything else you feel we will find useful
    • someone who knows Czech or Slovak and who can then access a lot more literature

    Research so far:

    Quite a lot about units physical appearance, mostly from reenactors:



    polak966's early Slavic unit roster

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Quote Originally Posted by polak966 View Post
    Early Slavic Warfare



    Družina
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...slavs/druz.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...lavs/kniaz.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...s/scan0001.jpg
    The nature of early Slavic warfare can be characterized by this group of companions, synonymous in all of the modern Slavic tongues and tied to the tribal relationships of fealty that had preceded feudalism. The term Družina itself is rooted in the Proto-Slavic word for friend, drugъ, still present among modern Slavs in some form. In an era before feudalism, the central factor to conducting warfare was a potentate’s personal bodyguard, his group of closest companions, the Družina. These men were tied to their overlord through bonds similar to those of the Germanic peoples, and were supplied all their equipment and land by their lord. In exchange, they served as a standing army for the prince, almost always mobilized, travelling with him from gord to gord, and ready for war.
    Being the finest warriors at the disposal of the knez, they are the military elite of Slavic society, and their armour and equipment is evident of this. Not until the 9th c. that armour and swords had become more widespread among the Slavs and till that time only the Druzinniks had disposal to such fine weaponry. The Družina system would finally meet its end with the advent of feudalism into Eastern Europe, which allowed for greater manpower to be called up in times of war. The former Družina warrior class would gradually become the landed knights of the High Middle Ages.
    *please note that if used in a mod, this unit may have different version of it depending on the faction in question. although the druzhina was common to all slavs, military styles varied across regions. an eastern, western, southern, and even unique polish version is possible.

    Konnica
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...s/957_face.jpg
    The question of the use of cavalry among the Slavs has always been one disputed among historians. The most numerous sources on Slavic warfare come to us from the Byzantines, describing the Slavic raiders that had been penetrating Greece from across the Danube. It can be accepted that by the 7th c. the use of the horse among the Slavs was widespread, and most definitely among the elite. Evidence for this is provided in the nature of raids into Byzantium, which would have been made much easier on horseback. In addition the proximity of nomadic peoples in the northern Balkans to the Slavs there would have made the use of horsemen more widespread, and it seems the Avar and Bulgar raiding parties included Slavic cavalry as well.
    The average Slavic horseman would have very little difference in armour and weaponry from his infantry counterpart. Weapons ranged from axes, maces, to clubs, and in later periods swords. Javelins would also have been used. Armour, in the common trend of early Slavs, was very limited. Round shields and the occasional helmet of the conical shape, often imported from Western Europe, and the ‘Polish Great helms’ sporting a tall point, common of the East and borrowed from Persia.
    Slavic horsemen also used spurs, something that set them apart from the nomads.
    armed with javelin, secondary axe/mace/club (i believe it's now possible for varying weapons in one unit)

    Lučnici
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...s/slavarch.jpg
    The bow was perhaps the most widespread weapon used among Slavic infantry. The shape of these steel arrow-heads varied, from original shapes to others adapted from the nomadic archers. The Slavs were famous for their ambushing tactics, and the Byzantines described many different strategies they used to avoid open battle. Among these was the use of guerrilla warfare, keeping to forested areas where combat was made easier for and preferred by the warrior-bands, to even hiding in lakes by using reeds as snorkels. Another feature of Slavic archers was the use of poison-tipped arrowheads, mentioned in the Strategikon.
    Lacking any form of armour such lighter troops would be armed with axes or knives as a secondary weapon.

    Tǫgi Voje
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...slavs/voj2.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n.../1211_face.jpg
    The absence of armour was a common feature among the early Slavs. Not till later periods (9th c.) during which clan chiefs were consolidating their power do we see wider use of swords, helms, and chain mail. Even then only the wealthier strata of society would have the financial capacity for such equipment, but nonetheless it was no longer an uncommon site. These ‘heavy warriors’ would be the finest infantry at a knez’s disposal and their fierce Slavic warrior spirit combined with increased quality of armament makes them a deadly force on the battlefield.
    Heavier Slavic warriors of the later periods would still be armed with common weapons like axe and spear, but the sword was now coming into wider use as well. Round shields would still be the norm, and not till the 11th c. does the Norman kite shield come into use. Helmets would now also be much more commonly, the most widespread type in the west being the conical helmet, often imported from Francia and Germany, while oriental-style helmets were common in eastern Poland and the Rus’.
    primary javelin, secondary axe/sword. warcry

    Borьcьje
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...slavs/slav.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n.../1212_face.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...s/958_face.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...avs/tarcz2.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...avs/tarcz3.jpg
    The spear was another common weapon, cheap but effective nonetheless, and available to warriors of all classes. Sources also mention each warrior was armed with two javelins that are used aside from his main weapon. The typical Slav warrior-raider was absent of any armour aside from a round shield, in sources often noted for its shoddy quality. Some warriors are even described as wearing nothing but trousers into battle, with no tunics present. It was these lightly armed peoples that came out of the darkness of the Pripet areas and came to be known by the west as the Sclavi, Antes, and Wends. Their tactics involved the use of forest, ambush, and terrain to defeat foes of numerical and technological superiority, while early warfare was raid-based and large scale operations were uncommon till the later rise of powerful chieftains in the 7th and 8th centuries.
    primary javelin, secondary spear. warcry

    Voje
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...biantribes.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...lavs/slav2.jpg
    The axe was a favourite weapon among the tribal warriors. Cheap but devastating, the Slavs made good use of domestic axes (topor) and specialized battle-axes (bordy) of varying weight and blade shape. The wide use of such a weapon made the Slavic warrior a terrifying force on the battlefield, and combined with the military traditions and hot-headedness of these peoples this ensured the varying success that powerful political bodies like Byzantium and Frankland had fighting against these new invaders from the east, who in the example of the former often found Slavic armies with Avar support pounding on the gates of Constantinople itself.
    The equipment of these men would be persistent with the norm; absence of armour, with only the defence provided by one’s shield.
    primary javelin, secondary axe. warcry.

    *Družina Kagana (Avar Nobles)
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...lavs/avar4.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n.../1209_face.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...slavs/avar.jpg
    The Avars came onto the Danubian Plain in what is sometimes considered the second wave of nomads that would enter European via the Russian Steppe after Attila’s Huns came in the 5th century. The Avars were a powerful military force and in many ways very sophisticated militarily compared to their neighbours. Immediately they posed a threat to the Byzantine Empire, raiding across the Danube, even threatening Constantinople itself. All these military endeavours would not have been possible but for one key element in Avar warfare; the Slavs. The Avars that had occupied the Hungarian Plain came into proximity of the Slavic population already living there, and extensively used Slavonic warriors in its military operations, besieging cities and providing the infantry in the army. It became almost standard for Avar armies to be mainly composed of a Slavic infantry element, and there would even become a blend of nomad and settled Slav culture in the Avar realm.
    The Avars of course, being a nomadic people, would have provided the Slavs with their heavy cavalry on the battlefield. The king of the Avars, called the Khagan in Old Turkic, would have the finest of the Avar nobility at his disposal. Heavy riders armed in chain mail and lamellar, Avar nobility was in no ways poor, prosperous from the constant raids against Byzantium in the south, and even the Franks in the west.

    *Konnica Obrska (Avar Horse Archers)
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...lavs/avar3.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n.../1210_face.jpg
    http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...lavs/avar2.jpg
    Coming across the Carpathian basin, it is estimated the Avar host may have numbered as much as 50 000 pastoral nomads, once the Avars had absorbed many of the Huns and Bulgars in their wake. Entering Europe they were a typical nomadic force, based on mass units of light cavalry supported by heavy riders. The Avar light cavalry used the composite bough, albeit a shorter version from the Hunnic model. Throughout the second half of the 6th century these horsemen laid waste upon their neighbours, destroying the Gepids, subduing the Balkan Slavs, and creating havoc on the Byzantine border. It would not be till Byzantium’s end of war against Persia and a massive Slavic uprising that this semi-settled kingdom of the Avars finally went into decline, receiving its final blow from Charlemagne’s Franks. What remained of the Avars would be absorbed in the Slavic peoples they had once controlled.

    *Bol’are (Bulgar Nobles)


    *Konnica Blgarska (Bulgar Horse Archers)

    Some early Slavic arms
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    some weapon replica's

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Quote Originally Posted by absinthia View Post
    FORGED SLAVIC SWORD, Starigard Oldenburg

    Hand forged Slavic sword from the locality of Starigard/Oldenburg. 10th Century. Blunt, battle ready replica. Overall site circa 80 cm.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    FORGED SLAVIC SPEAR - replica


    Replica of a slavonic spear from a locality of Stare Mesto (translation: Old Town) in Moravia, Czech Republic. Age: 9th/10th century of new Age. Total length: 39 cm.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    SLAVONIC AXE

    weapon for warriors who were not so rich to buy sword. This axe is inspired by finds of axes from the Great Moravian Empire (9th century).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    SLAVIC AXE

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    SLAVIC SCRAMASAX

    This knife was made on the basis of a find of a knife from Great Moravian times (8th century). Its blade is a replica of a blade from the locality of Levy Hradec. Decoration of knife-handle is borrowed from a decorated knife-handle that was found near locality of Stare Mesto u Uherskeho Hradiste. Total length: 35 cm, blade: 23 cm
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    SLAVONIC KNIFE - Stare Mesto locality

    replica of a knife from the 9th century (Great Moravian era). Total length: 23 cm, blade: 11,5 cm
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    OLD SLAVONIC KNIFE - Levy Hradec locality

    This unusual knife was made on the basis of a find of a knife from Great Moravian times (8th century). Its blade is a replica of a blade from the locality of Levy Hradec. Decoration of knife-handle is borrowed from a decorated knife-handle that was found near locality of Stare Mesto u Uherskeho Hradiste. Total length: 29 cm, blade: 17 cm.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    KNIFE OF OLD SLAVS


    Replica of a knife from the 9th century (Great Moravian era, Stare Mesto near Uherske Hradiste city). Total length: 25 cm, blade: 12 cm
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    ...and of course info from Wikipedia

    WARNING: OSPREY IMAGES ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE POST HERE.
    Instead if you have any sent them via email or other ways.
    Last edited by Matthćus; April 28, 2011 at 06:01 AM.

  2. #2
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Does anyone interests to help us present this kingdom accutratly?
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  3. #3

  4. #4
    Merlkir's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Hello,

    some of the links you posted are very appropriate, but the general slavic roster is perhaps too general and many of the items seen in the reconstructions (often quite poor) do not apply or cannot be easily applied to Great Moravia. (for lack of finds or too distant relation)

    From one of the good links:

    (http://cea.livinghistory.cz/zivotvm/valka/)

    V době vrcholu velkomoravského státu je odhadován celkový počet dospělých - a tedy bojeschopných - mužů asi na 80 000 - 100 000. To představuje zemskou hotovost která kompletně nastupovala opravdu jen ve výjimečných situacích. Běžně do boje nastupovalo přibližně 30 000 mužů a z toho až 10 000 jízdních. Jak je vidět Velká Morava v době svého největšího rozmachu disponovala vojskem opravdu úctyhodným. Samotná družina Svatoplukova pak čítala přibližně 5 000 mužů a to převážně jezdců.
    Nejčastější válečná střetnutí byla s Franky, pro Moravany často vítězná. V dobách míru s Franskou říší byly podnikány expansivní výpravy mimo sféru zájmů franské říše.
    TRANSLATION:
    At the time of greatest power of the Moravian state we estimate the total number of adult and therefore able bodied men to 80 000 - 100 000. That describes the full mobilization of the state which was only fielded in very special circumstances. A more common number of men in the army was about 30 000 and from those up to 10 000 were cavalry.
    It's obvious the Great Moravia at its greatest had a quite formidable army. Svatopluk's own "družina" alone was about 5000 men strong and most of them cavalry.
    The most common wars and skirmishes were those with Franks, often victorious for the Moravians. During the times of peace with the Frankish empire the Moravians organized expansive raids outside the zone of frankish interest.
    END

    The sword replica you have doesn't seem too accurate to me. Perhaps if you wanted to take a look at absolute top quality swords, check out Patrick Bárta's website. He did a reconstruction of the sword from Staré Město.

    http://www.templ.net/english/news.php

    I don't think I have the time to translate books, but if you manage to find someone speaking Czech - those websites (livinghistory.cz and velkomoravane.eu) should provide at least enough information to get you started. These guys know their stuff.

    One fun bit of info - Moravians probably didn't use metal bosses on shields. You can see the reconstructions at the websites have wooden ones.

    Hope this helps a bit.

  5. #5
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Thank you jentlemen for your help.+rep to both of you.
    We need as much info as we can have.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  6. #6
    Matthćus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    thank you very much, now give me some time to go trough all info you posted. you will be informed about the progress.

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Maybe worth a look:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Trailer for a video, that was shown in a museal exhibition -- Slovácké muzeum in Uherském Hradišti:


    Slovácké muzeum, Uherské Hradiště



    open air museum Modrá:


    Great moravian farmstead -- animated archological reconstruction:

  8. #8

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Quote Originally Posted by Merlkir View Post
    The sword replica you have doesn't seem too accurate to me. Perhaps if you wanted to take a look at absolute top quality swords, check out Patrick Bárta's website. He did a reconstruction of the sword from Staré Město.
    true enough, it is supposedly a replica of a 10th century sword found at Starigard/Oldenburg in Holstein. this is quite a bit from Staré Město.
    if i am not mistaken the sword in question were made by kovanatelier.
    Hr. Alf han hugg til han var mod, Han sto i femten Ridderes Blod; Sĺ tog han alle de Kogger ni Og sejlede dermed til Norge fri. Og der kom tidende til Rostock ind, Der blegned saa mangen Rosenkind. Der grćd Enker og der grćd Břrn, Dem hadde gjort fattig den skadelige Řrn.
    Anders Sřrensen Vedel

  9. #9
    Matthćus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    we have this sword too. it should be more accurate. same sword that warrior in first post has in his hand.
    http://www.wulflund.com/old-slavs/sl...-slovakia.html



    in any case I will make a few more

    PS
    picture from this angle makes the blade more "pointy" than it is in reality. it is exact recreation of that replica sword.
    Last edited by Matthćus; April 27, 2011 at 03:21 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia


  11. #11

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Hi there,
    I'm from Czech rep. and I'm archaeologist, specialized in Great Moravian era. I'm also a reenactor, which is how I got informed about this project. I don't play Total War (not playing much computer games anymore), but I'll try to help you guys to make this Grerat Moravian mod as real as it can be.
    First, those replicas are really bad. None of those axes is even close to the real ones. The original swords are much different, too. The spear is ok.
    Second - about armors, helmets, shields and such - the archaeological evidence is surprisingly poor. We have lots of weapons, but very few armours. The only armor type that's 100% proved by finds is ring mail. It seems to be produced here, but even then it was a top-notch armour, only available to the highest nobility. Other armour types are more or less hypothetical. There were wars with the Franks, who used scale mail - one would expect there should be some evidence of it as a loot in possession of the Slavs. No, despite we know of battles where many Franks died and were looted by the winning Moravians. There may be one new type of armour, not really discovered yet. I'm currently working on it, gathering the finds and trying to prove my theory that they are parts of armour. I should present this theory at the end of May, so I'll tell you then. What other armour types could they use? Well, most reenactors use several types of padded armour, though there's no evidence of it. But sure, it is one of the probable ways to go. Other option is leather, which is what I use. I made a thick leather coat that I use as armour and it serves me well.
    check it out here: http://img3.rajce.idnes.cz/d0303/2/2...s/DSC06700.JPG
    The iron disc that protects my chest is also based on a find form here, but it's a unique find and this is my interpretation of it - so don't think of it as a standard item for Great Moravia.
    The other guy from my group on the picture is wearing a leather lamellar armour. It's quite popular amongst reenactors (especially in Poland), but again, it's not proved by any finds or analogical metal lamellas from this era and area.
    About helmets - that's another problem. There is no helmet found that could be safely dated to Great Moravian era and origin. Just like the armours, helmets could have been produced here and could have been gained from the loot, but there's no evidence of it. Sure, there are several helmets found from CZ and Slovakia, that are dated somewhere between 8th and 11th century, but finding a Great Moravian helmet is really tough. It's highly probable that metal helmets were only possessed by the highest nobility, the mounted retinue of land lord (I would say "king" but Great Moravian empire never had a king in the medieaval meaning - accepted by the Pope, crowned etc, but still he had more power than many later kings...there's actually a letter from Pope to Svatopluk, where he's addressed as the Pope's "dearest son" which is sometimes interpreted that the Pope did accept him as a king of sorts..).
    Shields - now that's my favourite topic - well, first information: forget the shiled boss. Absolutely no evidence from most of the Slav world in this era, they just didnd't use it. Most likely their shields were carried on the forearm, much like later medieval shileds, so the boss was useless and thus not used. More about shields later, if you're interested.
    Well, gotta go now, I'll be back with more pics and information. If not, remind me via PM or email.
    Last edited by Knecht_Arkona; April 28, 2011 at 08:51 AM.

  12. #12
    Alkimachos's Avatar EoR Modeller
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Quote Originally Posted by Knecht_Arkona View Post
    Hi there,
    I'm from Czech rep. and I'm archaeologist, specialized in Great Moravian era. I'm also a reenactor, which is how I got informed about this project. I don't play Total War (not playing much computer games anymore), but I'll try to help you guys to make this Grerat Moravian mod as real as it can be.
    First, those replicas are really bad. None of those axes is even close to the real ones. The original swords are much different, too. The spear is ok.
    Second - about armors, helmets, shields and such - the archaeological evidence is surprisingly poor. We have lots of weapons, but very few armours. The only armor type that's 100% proved by finds is ring mail. It seems to be produced here, but even then it was a top-notch armour, only available to the highest nobility. Other armour types are more or less hypothetical. There were wars with the Franks, who used scale mail - one would expect there should be some evidence of it as a loot in possession of the Slavs. No, despite we know of battles where many Franks died and were looted by the winning Moravians. There may be one new type of armour, not really discovered yet. I'm currently working on it, gathering the finds and trying to prove my theory that they are parts of armour. I should present this theory at the end of May, so I'll tell you then. What other armour types could they use? Well, most reenactors use several types of padded armour, though there's no evidence of it. But sure, it is one of the probable ways to go. Other option is leather, which is what I use. I made a thick leather coat that I use as armour and it serves me well.
    check it out here: http://img3.rajce.idnes.cz/d0303/2/2...s/DSC06700.JPG
    The iron disc that protects my chest is also based on a find form here, but it's a unique find and this is my interpretation of it - so don't think of it as a standard item for Great Moravia.
    The other guy from my group on the picture is wearing a leather lamellar armour. It's quite popular amongs reenactors (especially in Poland), but again, it's not proved by any finds or analogical metal lamellas from this era and area.
    About helmets - that's another problem. There is no helmet found that could be safely dated to Great Moravian era and origin. Just like the armours, helmets could have been produced here and could have been gainjed form the loot, but there's no evidence of it. Sure, there are several helmets found form CZ and Slovakia, that are dated somwhere between 8th and 11th century, but finding a Grat Moravian helmet is really tough. It's highly probable that metal helmets were only possessed by the highest nobility, the mounted retinue of land lord (I would say "king" but Great Moravian empire never had a king in the medieaval meaning - accepted by the Pope, crowned etc, but still he had more power than many later kings...there's actually a letter from Pope to Svatopluk, where he's addressed as the Pope's "dearest son" which is sometimes interpreted that the Pope did accept him as a king of sorts..)
    Shields - now that's my favourite topic - well, first information: forget the shiled boss. Absolutely no evidence from most of the Slav world in this era, they just didnd't use it. Most likely their shields were carried on the forearm, much like later medieval shileds, so the boss was useless and thus not used. More about shields later, if you're interested.
    Well, gotta go now, I'll be back with more pics and information. If not, remind me via PM or email.
    Great research! The TGC team must hire you!!! +rep!!!

    East of Rome Co - Leader / Modeller of Asia ton Barbaron / Ex beta tester of Roma Surrectum

  13. #13
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    @Knecht_Arkona
    Thank you my friend. Please contact with Matthćus and shear your knowlege. We seak for maximum (as possible) accuracy in presenting the world TGC map shows. We want to be educated from our work and aducate the same time all those that will honor us by playing this mod.
    Afcourse your contribution will be mentioned in the Credits list of the mod's contributors.
    Remember that we show the kingdoms from 872 to 1079 AD.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  14. #14

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Quote Originally Posted by Knecht_Arkona View Post
    I'm from Czech rep. and I'm archaeologist, specialized in Great Moravian era.
    excellent, knowledge beyond wikipedia is what we need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knecht_Arkona View Post
    First, those replicas are really bad. None of those axes is even close to the real ones. The original swords are much different, too. The spear is ok.
    my question then is what exactly make the so bad and what would be more correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knecht_Arkona View Post
    Second - about armors, helmets, shields and such - the archaeological evidence is surprisingly poor. We have lots of weapons, but very few armours. The only armor type that's 100% proved by finds is ring mail. It seems to be produced here, but even then it was a top-notch armour, only available to the highest nobility. Other armour types are more or less hypothetical. There were wars with the Franks, who used scale mail - one would expect there should be some evidence of it as a loot in possession of the Slavs.
    the Franks, judging by what has been dug out of the ground did use little scale armor. the norm seem to have been multi-layered maile. scales has been found, but it were most likely for the nobility that could afford goods imported from Constantinople.
    no surprise then if the evidence of scales are even less in Moravian area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knecht_Arkona View Post
    The iron disc that protects my chest is also based on a find form here, but it's a unique find and this is my interpretation of it - so don't think of it as a standard item for Great Moravia.
    that plectoral disc seem to me as eastern influence, but i might be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knecht_Arkona View Post
    About helmets - that's another problem. There is no helmet found that could be safely dated to Great Moravian era and origin.
    i doubt there were any difference between Moravia and its neighbors in that aspect, at the best local variations due to the smithy that made them.
    still we wish to make each faction a bit different from the rest, even if it is just variations over the same theme.
    we wish to make a roster that represent Great Moravia at its greatest... that would include findings from Moravia, Nitra, Balaton/Pannonia, Vistula and Silesia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knecht_Arkona View Post
    Shields - now that's my favourite topic - well, first information: forget the shiled boss. Absolutely no evidence from most of the Slav world in this era, they just didnd't use it.
    Most likely their shields were carried on the forearm, much like later medieval shileds, so the boss was useless and thus not used. More about shields later, if you're interested.
    Well, gotta go now, I'll be back with more pics and information. If not, remind me via PM or email.
    while will not contest that the slavs of this area did not use bosses, i can not agree that bosses were useless. the shield boss has various functions, among them is to stop a weapon from sliding across the surface and also for dealing a tough blow if hitting an opponent with the shield.
    if indeed bosses were absent i would put that tho the price of metal rather than it being useless.

    please be back with more pics and info
    my wife knows Check and thus some Slovak, so if you have interesting stuff in native language please bring it.
    Hr. Alf han hugg til han var mod, Han sto i femten Ridderes Blod; Sĺ tog han alle de Kogger ni Og sejlede dermed til Norge fri. Og der kom tidende til Rostock ind, Der blegned saa mangen Rosenkind. Der grćd Enker og der grćd Břrn, Dem hadde gjort fattig den skadelige Řrn.
    Anders Sřrensen Vedel

  15. #15

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Quote Originally Posted by absinthia View Post
    we wish to make a roster that represent Great Moravia at its greatest... that would include findings from Moravia, Nitra, Balaton/Pannonia, Vistula and Silesia.
    Wait In 872y Vistulans were totally independent from Great Moravia and in fact quite powerfull. They are known from a few but very large (10-25 ha) keeps. I hope that TGC will consider adding Vistulans faction for the second release (it would definitely make the gameplay for neighbour Kiev, Magyars and Great Moravia more interesting). You can count on my reasearch for them. About Great Moravia, I have access to some good sources about them (as in Poland Great Moravia is also popular theme) but if you have Czech researcher than I think he will have even better access to Great Moravia sources.
    Last edited by Silesian_Noble; April 29, 2011 at 04:08 PM.


  16. #16
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Every help counts.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  17. #17

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    this book has some interesting drawings of axes and a hilt (pages 12 & 19).

  18. #18

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    This is quite unique building, it is the oldest church in midlle Europe probebly... it could be in Mikulčiče region or Bratislava... They say that it was probebly build in 9cen.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kop%C4%8Dany

    This is quite old Bulding, its said that it was build in 9cen. It could be in Nitra region

    http://www.nitrianskablatnica.sk/-en...html?id3=43133

    And In Bratislava region could by fort of one of the oldest Castles in Slovakia, becouse Bratislava Castle is quite old too

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dev%C3%ADn_Castle (Devin)

  19. #19

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian_Noble View Post
    Wait In 872y Vistulans were totally independent from Great Moravia and in fact quite powerfull. They are known from a few but very large (10-25 ha) keeps. I hope that TGC will consider adding Vistulans faction for the second release (it would definitely make the gameplay for neighbour Kiev, Magyars and Great Moravia more interesting). You can count on my reasearch for them.
    while one of the Vistulan major centers Krakow is on our map, it would be a 1 region faction on the fringe of the map. and as far as i understand the Vistulans were subjugated by Svatopluk in 874.
    so personally i rather see us make there some AoR units and part of the Greater Moravian roster.

    eventually our remaining factions slots could be used for non-playable re-emergent slave-like factions, with a limited roster. within our map area there are several, semi-independent, local authorities that does not quite warrant a full fledged faction. while their presence could still add a layer to the strategic diplomacy of the campaign.
    this, how ever, will most likely have to wait til after the initial release.
    Hr. Alf han hugg til han var mod, Han sto i femten Ridderes Blod; Sĺ tog han alle de Kogger ni Og sejlede dermed til Norge fri. Og der kom tidende til Rostock ind, Der blegned saa mangen Rosenkind. Der grćd Enker og der grćd Břrn, Dem hadde gjort fattig den skadelige Řrn.
    Anders Sřrensen Vedel

  20. #20

    Default Re: [Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

    Quote Originally Posted by absinthia View Post
    while one of the Vistulan major centers Krakow is on our map, it would be a 1 region faction on the fringe of the map. and as far as i understand the Vistulans were subjugated by Svatopluk in 874.
    so personally i rather see us make there some AoR units and part of the Greater Moravian roster.
    I don't like that idea. Lest start with that in 872y Great Moravia wasn't really great at all. I mean not only Vistulans were independent, Lower and Upper Silesia formed also separate states. So everything could happen in that area past 872y. Moravians could lost the war of 874y with Vistulans and then the latter would be the major west Slav state. In fact Great Moravia was a temporary state itself, it collapsed completely just 30 years later. So I think Vistulans would be a good addition to TGC, a faction that would help balancing Great Moravia, Kiev and Magyars. Also there could be put another settlement so Vistulans would start with 2 or even 3 regions. We know quite a few settlements of Vistulans of that period so there is a good historical base for such settlements addition. Just a suggestion that I think is really worth to be considered.
    Last edited by Silesian_Noble; April 30, 2011 at 07:22 PM.


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