Makuria - weak economy?

[geala]

I've come quite recently to BC (playing EB only for a long time) and am rather pleased with the mod (although I would like more trait and anciliary options from buildings to get better governors and so). I especially like Makuria, a fresh and inspiring new experience. (I'm spending also a lot of time with finetuning the unit card pictures a little bit, a spleen of me since EB times. )

I'm facing some economic problems as Makuria in my recent campaign. Maybe it has been askened and answered long before, but I'm a bit to lazy to read through all the huge old threads, sry. I usually have a turtle approach, first developing the towns and the economy. I've build every economic building possible in my 8 provinces, but can scarcely support one meager stack with some middle class units and levies. And I have an overmighty Ayyubid superpower at my border, I only exist yet because they still conquer the rest of the world. I'm using the old EDU, not gamegeek2s new EDU (which I will try next turn).

The low income is not totally absurd from a historical point of view, Makuria could not have been a very rich country. But my question gamewise: is there a problem in M2:TW with the economy, esp. trade income, at the edges of the world map, like in R:TW? I have resisted to use the console yet, but ...

[Mik528]

Try to avoid conflict with the Ayyubids, i was a powerful Makuria and got cocky which led to me actually losing. Instead of north, head east, take some of Arabia for income and keep going. Based on what i remember Makurian Longbows are quite cheap so i had many of those until the elite ones came, i had a war with the Omani and taking their provinces will make you richer. Then you can head for India, your javelins will work well or somewhere across the Arabian coast. Avoid Ayyubids until you are extremely rich and powerful with many full stacks leading your attack. Hope this helps

[Rex Inanimatus]

Try to avoid conflict with the Ayyubids, i was a powerful Makuria and got cocky which led to me actually losing. Instead of north, head east, take some of Arabia for income and keep going. Based on what i remember Makurian Longbows are quite cheap so i had many of those until the elite ones came, i had a war with the Omani and taking their provinces will make you richer. Then you can head for India, your javelins will work well or somewhere across the Arabian coast. Avoid Ayyubids until you are extremely rich and powerful with many full stacks leading your attack. Hope this helps

I use this tactic too, only I always start with heading north skipping aswan for later, taking luxor first... Ayyubids are preoccupied with the holy lands anyway

merchant income: there are many sweets in Damascus' desert....

this give you a good economy but against Ayyubids it will never be cakewalk

[geala]

Too late, yesterday I attacked the Ayyubids after they started a war with the other superpower, the Seljuks. I got one city, then they had a full stack of rather well armoured troops ready and attacked me. I managed to win but nearly a third of my more or less naked army got sliced. Good old Pyrrhos would have laughed about me. The Ayyubids are very cunning people, immediatly declared a truth with the Seljuks and presumably will soon look after me with full power. I think they have 4 or 5 full stacks roaming freely through the world.

I forgot to mention that I had and have 6 merchants in Egypt who make a lot of money, but it is not enough. The resources near the Makurian cities are crap, because it's too far away from the trade routes. One of my merchants made 419 in Egypt a turn from dye, same made only about 50 a turn from gold or ivory near Dongola.

In EB you can turtle to a certain degree. I mainly play Hellenoi people (Makedonia, Epiros and so on) , because I like the Greeks (to a certain amount). As Makedonia for instance you have to struggle hard the first turns to get rid of KH, thereafter I never attack another faction myself, I only counterattack if attacked. But you cannot compare Makuria to Makedonia and RTW battles to M2TW battles. I like RTW (EB)-style battles a lot more, in M2TW the units seem to have more difficulties to find their way and keep order. I have to get used to it.

[cardoran megas]

>I use this tactic too, only I always start with heading north skipping aswan for later, taking luxor first

If I tried that the ayyubids would be at war with me very soon, they never appreciate me bordering them.

>One of my merchants made 419 in Egypt a turn from dye

I do the same

>The resources near the Makurian cities are crap, because it's too far away from the trade routes

resources in your starting area generate poor wealth for your merchants, same with any faction

>Too late, yesterday I attacked the Ayyubids after they started a war with the other superpower, the Seljuks

If you plan on fighting the ayyubids do it sooner rather than later... now you have the headache of dismantling their vast empire. You can always attempt an alliance, the ai will never stab you in the back. You will need to trade them a settlement in return for the alliance, hopefully you can get a ceasefire without having to trade another settlement, then maybe do as others have suggested. Colonise oman, yemen region

[Roboute Guilliman]

Indeed Oman is the first you should attack. Once you settled in Arabia, you can try going against the Ayyubids, personally I engaged India first tho.

I tried once going against Ayyubids early on. I got as far as Gaza, but the moment they had armored infantry, things got a bit rough and I couldnt hold Egypt for long.

[cardoran megas]

Strange I find that makuria has one of the easiest economies... many nations start with strong debt but they break even. Also many of their troops are cheap to maintain. Once you take out the rebel settlements nearby (very easy to do if you exploit the charge of your knights) you should have enough cash lying around to support a full stack easily. I also find it strange that people have trouble with the ayyubids... it comes down to where you choose to fight them. Engage them in bridge battles with your army of javelinmen and longbows and they will be devastated. Likewise you can overpower their armies in a siege (them attacking you ofc) though it is not as easy as a bridge fight. A field battle is suicide if they have lots of heavy lancers/elite infantry. Qahira spawns a garrison of medium spearmen so ensure that it is not already well garrisoned beforehand... if you attack with a full stack of your poorly armoured troops they will sally thinking you inferior... but then their plodding spearmen get to enjoy a shower of javelins and arrows

I did not think you could turtle in EB? I though every nation starts in crippling debt

note: the longer you leave the ayyubids the stronger they become... I recommend warring with them the second they attack the KOJ. Ofc the useless crusaders will declare a ceasefire instead of weakening the ayyubids in a two-front war (after you slap the ayyubids around a bit)

stupid AI

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

Look into Socotra too - there's some good merchant goods there and it's a nice base for invading anywhere in the Persian Gulf or Indian Ocean. But that said, try to take Aden and Sana first.

[Dago Red]

I think it's your lack of trade. I don't know the ins and outs of how the game economy works, but, you border no one but the Ayyubids and have only 2 ports or so.

[Dogensu]

Actually I kinda find Makuria easy. Because it has got lots of goods near it, such as Gold, Ivory and Slaves!

[Rex Inanimatus]

I didn't say Markuria economy is from a hopeless faction ,it's a challenge. And that way IMO is biggest chance to beat Ayyubids. If the game is sure win why bother to play? It's only advise.....

[Iguanaonastick]

Are you using the new EDU? I never played Makuria with the old, but with the new I was quite successful.

I did have more than just the rebel settlements in Africa conquered though. I had sent a force to seize Aden and the surrounding provinces. This may have made the difference as instead of 1 stack I could support 1 1/3rd stack of decent troops. (Makurian and Abid Al'Shirah Spearmen, Makurian longbowmen, various light cavalry. I even had two units of Abyssinian Champions, which helped a lot)

I attacked the Ayyubids first, when my allies the Romans launched an invasion of Egypt and I decided to support them. The Roman force didn't last long but I was able to defeat several Ayyubid armies, seize all their Egyptian cities and then make peace just as they sent in four or so stacks from their vast Syrian Empire.

Hey, I probably could have fought those off. There was a bridge to defend. Much easier to build up my economy though, by the time another war broke out (they attacked this time) I commanded 2 full stacks and had some more heavy-ish troops.

The extra 1/3rd stack made a big difference because it meant I could reinforce my main army between battles. This way I could fight three field battles and a couple siege battles in a row with a full-strength army. (I did have to train up additional reinforcements to keep the war-effort going, but the buffer was enough that I never was under-strength.)

In the new EDU Makuria can take on the Ayyubids in the field, even with their "mostly naked army" as long as you have some spearmen (preferably those that can use shield-wall) in front of your line to hold them off. The AI has a tendency to field only limited cavalry (mostly Askari Nobles in my games) which your light cavalry can deal with. I found my light javelin cavalry particularly invaluable in dealing with some of their heavier troops. Abyssinian Champions also were a life-saver. With their flanks protected they could take on entire units and cripple them while suffering minimal casualties. Careful of fighting cavalry though. Even when I charged my champions at the rear of an engaged unit of Askari Nobles I lost half my men as the knights hacked at them as they ran past.