The top eleven western, modern day common misconceptions about the samurai

[Winkelried]

http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm

Welcome! This page is meant to help the average American, now interested in researching the samurai class, begin by dispelling the general misunderstandings. The following information, as contradictory as it may be to common belief or Hollywood definitions, is all based on historical fact.


Even the Ran team should read it...(I have myself learnt a lot of things)

PS please stick it...

[Kinjiss]

I knew about most of that stuff, except a lot of Daimyo's considered guns as cowardly, while a lot more saw their tactical benefits.

One thing he got wrong is that, it CAN be called Hara-Kiri OR Seppuku. Japanese characters often have two forms of reading them, the On-yomi and the Kun-yomi.

Otherwise, yeah, go read up!

[Ahiga]

A wonderful site. It's too bad that the historical nature of the samurai seems to not be what comes to mind to the regular person of the public. Some of the most suprising details that clash what I interprit the mainstream thinking is:

Bushido Code being something of the Edo Jidai period (A period of peace, which..if I am guessing right, was basically what led up to Emperor Meiji?), and not something that was used in the heyday of Samurai.

Ninja's and Samurai being essentially the same people.

And that all Samurai were soldiers.

I wish they would deal with the sort of innate mysticism about the Katana, though. People treat it as if it is the end-all ultimate sword, able to defeat anything and everything.

Ah well, that, and this Mod help to dismiss the stereotypes and misconceptions.

[Master Kenji Tanegashi]

HAI!!!!

First we must Understand the psychology and philosophical standards
the main (one of many) reasons that guns are considered dishonorable is:

life is considered precious, not to say that samurai didn't like taking lives. conviction must used when running a blade through anothers body. almost an undescribable feeling because your hands will feel the avulsion of your enemy (I haven't done that just so you know :sweatingb ). there is little conviction in pressing a trigger to end life. imagine spending a lifetime of training in vain if it could be ended with a single bullet. the gun was seen as a complete contradiction to bushido, it was not as just another skirmish weapon!
It took away all of our old traditions, and caused conflict with the old religons. even though it changed Japan eventually for better it costed us to give up our original traditions and take upon western styles, sadly so many samurai even made vain attempts to fight against it From Nagashino to Meiji rebellions. and now because of the loss of traditions it is treated with mysticisim not just japan many eastern cultures. I talk to movie goers asking me 'can a katana really cut through that?' I thank Prome for making this mod historically accurate and I pray that all the Kill Bill fans who think that all katanas were wielded in the name of revenge see that, so they may see that it was In the name of Duty, Loyalty, Courage, Justice and to Understand that samurai DOESN'T mean Warrior...that it MEANS to serve!

Arigato Prome & Jidai team Arigato!

[Curtis13]

HAI!!!!

First we must Understand the psychology and philosophical standards
the main (one of many) reasons that guns are considered dishonorable is:

life is considered precious, not to say that samurai didn't like taking lives. conviction must used when running a blade through anothers body. almost an undescribable feeling because your hands will feel the avulsion of your enemy (I haven't done that just so you know :sweatingb ). there is little conviction in pressing a trigger to end life. imagine spending a lifetime of training in vain if it could be ended with a single bullet. the gun was seen as a complete contradiction to bushido, it was not as just another skirmish weapon!
It took away all of our old traditions, and caused conflict with the old religons. even though it changed Japan eventually for better it costed us to give up our original traditions and take upon western styles, sadly so many samurai even made vain attempts to fight against it From Nagashino to Meiji rebellions. and now because of the loss of traditions it is treated with mysticisim not just japan many eastern cultures. I talk to movie goers asking me 'can a katana really cut through that?' I thank Prome for making this mod historically accurate and I pray that all the Kill Bill fans who think that all katanas were wielded in the name of revenge see that, so they may see that it was In the name of Duty, Loyalty, Courage, Justice and to Understand that samurai DOESN'T mean Warrior...that it MEANS to serve!

Arigato Prome & Jidai team Arigato!

This is a very heavily romanticised view. Bushido is a latter day invention. Do you want to know the truth? The Tokugawa shogunate invented it as a way to stop the samurai doing to the Tokugawa, what the Tokugawa had done to their masters.

"Bushido" heavily emphasises loyalty to one's master, and a severe dishonour to betray your master. Funny that, when the Tokugawas rose up against their masters and gained control of the country. Bushido is social contol on a wide scale. Using Bushido, the Tokugawas didn't need to police the Samurai, they did it themselves.

This wall all post 1600, post Sekigahara. Ask any Sengoku Samurai, and they will just laugh at you. They were soldiers, just like everyone else, and there are many cases of running from battle, betraying masters, treachery, and everything else, and pre-1600, these were all just seen as acts of war and soldiers.

This isn't to say that Bushido has no worth though. There are some very good values taught in Bushido, and definitly an admirable way of lilfe to follow. However, this cannot be confused with a hollywood depiction of the Samurai.

Re: Guns
Yes, many Daimyo were apposed to guns at first, but when they saw their destructive power, do you think anyone cared if they killed somoene so quickly? No! Funny, how all the crap about "guns are cowardice" came from Daimyo DEFEATED by guns, having failed to utilise them themselves.

Sorry Hollywood samurai fans, the site posted on this thread is very accurate, and this comes from someone doing a degree in Japan and Japanese history. Read those "misconceptions", they are very good. Also try browsing the forums, very informative.

Peace

[Winkelried]

I post that link http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm and ask a question :

Did japanese ever use a buckler or a shield (especially in warring states period) ?

[Curtis13]

No, never.

Merged double post. You should know better, you're a Civ. - Trajan

Also, Master Kenji Tanegashi, you do know the "Hai" means "yes" don't you?

Just checking, as the angry face afterwards seems out of context.

EDIT: EEP! Got told off!

[Imperator of Rome]

Knew about most of it also...except ive never heard of hari kiri but only sep.I wonder why the katana is always portrayed!!!What about the nodachi and nagitanas,imo i liked those weapons more then katanas

[Curtis13]

OK, but what about the rest of my post? Do you agree/disagree? Do you have anything to add?

[Master Kenji Tanegashi]

iie

understand that the way of the warrior, reason to fight on the front line of the battlefield has been around BEFORE Heike. Many who don't understand Zen Buddism don't understand were written documents from the tokugawa came from. When I say Bushido I am not refering to Tokugawa law written after Seki. When you here Bushido that is what you think. Bushido is not something that can be tangible. that's like saying that the dictionary invented love, pain, or loyalty. it was an unwritten code of honor. IT IS A WAY OF LIFE!! do you even think for a second that determination of my people didn't come about until the oppresive Tokugawa Clan. do you think that the japanese economic power, and highly educated students, didn't come about till The Tokugawa Clan? That the love for my land didn't come about till tokugawa? The tokugawa didn't create modern japan. the tokugawa didn't form the kanyro or diet system today. don't be foolish! and Do Not Target Me with your foolhearted nature ! You obviously are failing that class about My peoples History. If I were you I'd start class over, or get my money back! Sengoku samurai are dead now, did you know that? I'd continue a battle of wits but you seem to be completly un-armed besides,

Leave me be. The topic isn't about me... you may have to rely on your good olde intellect to tell you that (Baka). Get Back on Topic!!

Am I serious now?
Hai! :sign_alri :sign_war:

Offensive text removed, User PMed. - Trajan

[Zoya Skandi]

I know this may sound kinda stupid , but can any body tell me if their were samurai who had masamune :sweatingb ? and isn't the katana just a generalization of a sword, like isn't the no-dachi a long katana and the wakasashy short katana ?

[Curtis13]

Right, I will deal with this one point at a time.

iie

understand that the way of the warrior, reason to fight on the front line of the battlefield has been around BEFORE Heike.

This may be the case, but as far as I understand it, we are talking about formal Bushido, the written code of the "warrior", and this definitly did not exist pre 1600.

Many who don't understand Zen Buddism don't understand were written documents from the tokugawa came from.

I don't actually understand this sentence, your grammar is almost unreadable.

Are you inferring that I have no understanding of Zen buddhism? First off, I have had formal lessons in Zen, and have studied privately for many years. I meditate regularly and consider many things, besides reading hundreds of books on the subject. Please don't infer that I have no understanding of Zen Buddhism.

When I say Bushido I am not refering to Tokugawa law written after Seki.

Then what you are referring to is not Bushido. Regardless of whether or not an unwritten code of ethics and honour existed pre Tokugawa, the actual code known as Bushido did not exist at all. The warrior code of honour, if such a thing existed at all, was NOT called Bushido. This was a formal label issued post-1600.

When you here Bushido that is what you think. Bushido is not something that can be tangible. that's like saying that the dictionary invented love, pain, or loyalty. it was an unwritten code of honor. IT IS A WAY OF LIFE!!

I am well aware of what Bushido entails. I have studied traditional martial arts for many years, and have read countless books on Bushido (such as the positively strange Hagakure). I definitly do not need lessons in what Bushido is.

do you even think for a second that determination of my people didn't come about until the oppresive Tokugawa Clan. do you think that the japanese economic power, and highly educated students, didn't come about till The Tokugawa Clan? That the love for my land didn't come about till tokugawa?

I am in no way interested in your patriotism, I am interested in a debate about Bushido. I am unsure of the relevance of this part of your reply.

The tokugawa didn't create modern japan. the tokugawa didn't form the kanyro or diet system today.

I am unsure again of this passage. It depends on what you mean by "modern" Japan. If you mean Japan as it is to day, then no, the Tokugawa Shogunate did not directly create it (although it could be argued that it played a very important role). Today's Japan came about after the Meiji Restoration and the subsequent changes, and was largely influenced by WWII and General McArthur.

Also, I have no idea why you are talking about diet systems...

don't be foolish! and Do Not Target Me with your foolhearted nature ! You obviously are failing that class about My peoples History. If I were you I'd start class over, or get my money back!

Why exactly am I being foolish? Also, why are you attacking me personally. I have in no way insulted or attacked you, and you have brought personal insults into what I thought was an interesting debate. As for my class, I have no intention of starting over or getting my money back. I trust the educational system, and I trust that my experienced lecturers, published antrhopologists, know what they are talking about.

Sengoku samurai are dead now, did you know that?

I am well aware that Samurai as a whole are long dead. Why is this relevant?

I'd continue a battle of wits but you seem to be completly un-armed besides,

Another pointless personal attack. This only serves to lower people's respect of you on the forum. This is needless, why are you insulting me? Do you hope it will make you seem mature or worthy of a respectable debate?

Leave me be. The topic isn't about me... you may have to rely on your good olde intellect to tell you that (Baka). Get Back on Topic!!

Am I serious now?

No, you made this topic about us personally, I was only continuing the debate. And as far as I can fathom, this IS on topic. A debate about Modern Day Misconceptions, of which Bushido is one of them. I don't believe I can get more on topic than that.

I hope you will mature enough to continue this debate, as I honestly find it fascinating, but I shall take no further part until you cease pointless insults and learn to respect other people, as I have had to in the past.

Curtis13

[Zoya Skandi]

Thank you so much for the info winkelried, does any on know if they will be in the mod?
I know it's not my place to get involved in the debate :sweatingb .

curtis: Kenji's second language was english, you shouldn't attack him for that reason, I think he's doing a good job . although curtis13 may not understand what kenji-sama is trying to say but I do. I know you don't give a care about japanese patriotism and call some of our customs strange(but one of the things you have to take into consideration is that it's a little bit normal for us :laughing: ). that when he says bushido he's using a japanese term for "the way the warrior does". Now their have been fanatics in japanese history like Minamoto Yoshitsune and Benkei on Gojo which to us is like david and goliath. the taira and heike and the hero's of the gempei war followed a unwritten code what is very similiar to bushido but it was in 1159 nearly 500 years before a whisper of the tokugawa clan came, tokugawa were previously known as the matsudira family yes were imagawa retainers, (read the heike monogatari which our teachers used to prove that fact). when Yoritomo came to power during the kamakura period some of their trends became popular with the other samurai. that's what kenji-sama's reffering to that. I know that he's angry because you didn't refer to that history. if he doesn't want to debate you then leave him alone

Kenji: I know that he may seem offensive, and you may be angry because a non-japanese person claims to know more than some one who has studied japan from japan. remember that you are not speaking japanese so when you say bushido, it doesn't mean the same thing to them, to them you sound like your refering to tokugawa law and not what you mean to say. p.s. spell ocay - okay o.k. and use olde as old so you don't offend the lingo(and the won't make fun of you for your grammatical errors o.k. )

I hope that clears things up
:sign_war: i like that lol.

[Curtis13]

Thank you so much for the info winkelried, does any on know if they will be in the mod?
I know it's not my place to get involved in the debate :sweatingb .

curtis: Kenji's second language was english, you shouldn't attack him for that reason, I think he's doing a good job . although curtis13 may not understand what kenji-sama is trying to say but I do. I know you don't give a care about japanese patriotism and call some of our customs strange(but one of the things you have to take into consideration is that it's a little bit normal for us :laughing: ). that when he says bushido he's using a japanese term for "the way the warrior does". Now their have been fanatics in japanese history like Minamoto Yoshitsune and Benkei on Gojo which to us is like david and goliath. the taira and heike and the hero's of the gempei war followed a unwritten code what is very similiar to bushido but it was in 1159 nearly 500 years before a whisper of the tokugawa clan came, tokugawa were previously known as the matsudira family yes were imagawa retainers, (read the heike monogatari which our teachers used to prove that fact). when Yoritomo came to power during the kamakura period some of their trends became popular with the other samurai. that's what kenji-sama's reffering to that. I know that he's angry because you didn't refer to that history. if he doesn't want to debate you then leave him alone

Kenji: I know that he may seem offensive, and you may be angry because a non-japanese person claims to know more than some one who has studied japan from japan. remember that you are not speaking japanese so when you say bushido, it doesn't mean the same thing to them, to them you sound like your refering to tokugawa law and not what you mean to say. p.s. spell ocay - okay o.k. and use olde as old so you don't offend the lingo(and the won't make fun of you for your grammatical errors o.k. )

I hope that clears things up
:sign_war: i like that lol.

Thanks for seeing both sides of this, however, there are some points I must pick up on. Firstly, it was Kenji that brought personal attacks into this, and personally attacked me unprovoked. Why have you not picked up on this? Why is it that my tiny personal attack on grammar (which wasn't actually intentional, I was just saying I couldn't read it) when his blatant insults go ignored?

Secondly, I never said I didn't care about patriotism on the whole, it can be a great thing. What I meant, albeit worded badly, was that his particular burst of patriotism had no place in that particular debate.

Thirdly, I don't claim to know more than him, I am merely defending my academic persuits. I am not just another ignorant Gaijin.

At Kenji: I would love to carry on this debate, but if you don't want to, then that is fine. Please learn, however, to control your temper in future, it will not do you any favours.

[Winkelried]

Perhaps that can answer your questions :

About Katana and use of this word
form http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana

A blade longer than 2 shaku (61 cm) is considered a daito, or long sword. This is the category 'katana' fall into. However, the term 'katana' is often misapplied: a sword is only a katana if it is worn blade-up through a belt-sash called an obi (these 'katana' averaged 65 cm in blade length). If it is suspended by cords from a belt, it is called 'tachi' (average blade length of 75 cm) the tachi is worn cutting edge down.

read all the article (it's reliable)

About Masamune
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masamune

Masamune's swords have a reputation for superior beauty and quality, remarkable in a period where the steel necessary for swords was often impure. He is considered to have brought the art of 'nie' (martensitic crystals embedded in pearlite matrix, thought to resemble stars in the night sky) to its perfection.
Masamune studied under Kunimitsu and made blades in suguha but he made magnificient notare hamon which has never been found in Kunimitsu's. There are also some blades with ko-midare which appears to have been copied from the Old Bizen and Hoki styles. His works are well characterized by rich chikei and kinsuji, and beautiful nie. Swords created by Masamune often are referred to with the smith's name (much the same way that other pieces of artwork are), often with a name for the individual sword as well. The Honjo Masamune, a symbol of the Tokugawa shogunate and passed down from one shogun to another, is perhaps the best known Masamune sword.
Signed works of Masamune are quite few. The examples "Fudo Masamune", "Kyogoku Masamune", and "Daikoku Masamune" are acceptable as his genuine works. Judging from his style, he was active from the late Kamakura era to the Nambokucho era. His works are the most frequently cited among the swords listed in the Kyoho Meibutsu Cho, a catalogue of excellent swords in the collections of daimyos edited during the Kyoho era by Hon-ami.

read the rest too

PS :
Masamune : http://filmswords.com/highlander/masamuneart.htm
Katana : http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

Hope it helps you

[AngusH]

I could argue about bushido until I was blue in the face (and believe me, I have done exactly that all too many times), but the fact is that it's so ingrained in people that there is just no changing it. I rank bushido right up there with ninja as the two most misunderstood aspects of Japanese history.

If we are talking pre-Tokugawa Japan than there certainly was no written bushido code. The closest thing to a written code were the various gunki monogatari war tales (Heike Monogatari, Taiheiki, etc.) and the letters of instructions handed down by some of the bigger names (Hojo Shigetoki, Imagawa Sadayo, Hojo Soun, etc. though each of these are VERY different to each other). Much of what became thought of as the "way of the samurai" in Tokugawa times was derived from these sources, which were never very true to life or realistic to begin with, even back when they were originally written.

The gunki monogatari in particular were often written sometime after events (sometimes hundreds of years after) by people who weren't there. They make for an exciting read and are full of tragic stories that fit the (Heike in particular), but they weren't written by people that were there. The actual events may be true enough (battle dates, army commanders, though Heike is wrong here in several places) but the particulars are later inventions. Yet these are the only sources we have for describing samurai combat in their respective eras.

The Tokugawa Bakufu felt it was important for the samurai to retain their military tradition - with a further emphasis on honour, for obvious reasons - and so these war tales and letters of instruction were used as guides to show men who had never set foot on a battlefield what it meant to be a samurai. It was a time when making a name for yourself in battle was impossible however, so these tales would have meant precious little to the Edo-period ashigaru, living in poverty at the bottom of the samurai class.

The letters of instruction, Imagawa Sadayo's in particular, were also used to preach the samurai ideals, but again, these were written centuries ago (~1405 for Sadayo's) and bore very little relevancy to the 17th century and beyond.

The 'code' that was developed by the Tokugawa period scholars was pretty high level stuff conceived to legitimize the samurai's existence as well as the Bakufu's position. Yamaga Soko (1622-1685) felt that the Tokugawa period samurai's role should be to serve as an example to all other classes, and it was from his teachings that the term bushido was later attributed, but he himself called his teachings shido (path of the samurai) and bukyo (warrior's creed). These terms took in to account all of what was "stereotypically samurai" (i.e.. typical of the samurai as portrayed in the war tales and letters of instruction), such as honour, loyalty & learning, and it was from this and other teachings like Soko's that the Edo period samurai's image originates. Whether or not the majority of the samurai took these teachings to heart is a very different matter...

It is ironic that teachings like Yamaga Soko, which preach loyalty and samurai pride, helped bring about the end of the Bakufu and the samurai class.

[Master Kenji Tanegashi]

arigatogozimasu, thanks for clearing things up!
also I am curious about masamune as well will they be in the game, in like groups of 10-20?

[Winkelried]

Another good sites about Nihonto
http://swordforum.com/sfu/japanese/
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm
http://www.nbthk.net/

It would be great to add famous swordsmiths or school making in certain province.I will try to found a list (idem for teppo). Could you help me japanese speakers (I am only learning) ?

For the mod I dont believe that it would be accurate to see 10 or more simple samurai (not daimyos or famous warriors) armed with some really famous and already expensive swords on the battlefield at the same time. (Masamune's type of swords are now considered as National Treasures in Japan)

[TomteOfDoom]

Indeed, not to mention that not even a daimyo would use his Masamune-blade in battle, unless he was desperate or just nuts. Japanese swords are great weapons, but they still chip, bend and break just like other swords. They are sharp and unusually durable, but not unbreakable. You would not want to risk a family heirloom of legendary status in a battle, for combat you instead used budget swords balanced for value and quality. Ofcourse the richer you were, the better the swords you could use on the battlefield.

The cheapest swords, those used by the lowest of ashigaru were little more than just sharpened bars of iron, and these were sold unsigned in bundles.

If famous brands of blades would enter the game in anyway, it would be as traits for generals and nothing else, and they would still be there just for the sake of flavour, since it's unreasonable to give the entire bodyguard of the general higher combat stats just because he owns a sword he's probably not even using in battle. :wink:

Kenji, you say you own several no-dachi? Do you have any photos you could scan and send to me, I would love to see them.

[AngusH]

Yeah, except the actual movie is a little longer than what is shown in the intro to S:TW