ZenMod, 7/30 v4.5 updated for DLC PATCH, Darth & Mutant vers. available

[Hazbones]

You might want to upload new screenies of your mod. The ones in the OP (uploaded at photobucket) are not showing.

[General Malaise]

PICS

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

STATS

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

as of 5/15 v2.5, darth and mutant mod versions may differ

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Downloaded it, gave it a try. A couple of things.
1) These aren't really 'historical units' at all, just someone's impression of what they may be. It hasn't made the game any more or less historical than what it already is.

2) Removing vanilla units has just detracted from the fun of the game, while adding only a minimal amount of historical accuracy - and that of itself is questionable. It's pretty much dulled the game, actually.

In short, nice attempt, but falls short. Maybe wait until there's some mod tools.

[General Malaise]

Downloaded it, gave it a try. A couple of things.
1) These aren't really 'historical units' at all, just someone's impression of what they may be. It hasn't made the game any more or less historical than what it already is.

Actually, removing units armed only with katana does indeed make the game far more historical. Having katana-armed units would be the equivalent of making a game set in WW2 and having a unit composed of a squad of "Pistol Infantry". Of course, in reality, squads would be composed of men carrying different weapons, rifles and machineguns mostly, however no one would be using a pistol as a primary weapon period (let alone their only weapon and a whole squad of them), just as even though units in Sengoku Japan would have been carrying multiple weapons no one would have been using a katana as their primary. This isn't my "impression" this is a fact, so of course it has made the game more historical. You might as well say warrior nuns riding elephants are just people's impression of history and leaving them out wouldn't make the game more historical.

2) Removing vanilla units has just detracted from the fun of the game, while adding only a minimal amount of historical accuracy - and that of itself is questionable. It's pretty much dulled the game, actually.

In short, nice attempt, but falls short. Maybe wait until there's some mod tools.

You seemed to have missed the point of the mod. The mod is as much about removing redunancy and re-capturing the feel of the original Shogun as it is making things feel more historical. There's no gameplay purpose for units like katana samurai that can't be served by naginata or no-dachi, they are just there to look cool and fill out a roster. Your criticism strikes me as an odd thing to say anyway, since there are still more units in the mod than in vanilla overall. Apparently, removing around 3 units while adding about 12 (in addition to 10 unique clan heroes) dulls the game for you though, so I don't know what to say. Better just give up now I guess and wait for mod tools because you can't make a mod without katana samurai in it.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Hey, I took the time to remove all my existing mods, download yours, and play through it. It's constructive criticism, so don't get testy.

I have to disagree with your equivocating the katana to a pistol. Perhaps if you were to equate the pistol to say, a wakizashi that may be more to the point. And yes, it is your impression, regarding what and how many weapons were used, not fact.

[General Malaise]

Hey, I took the time to remove all my existing mods, download yours, and play through it. It's constructive criticism, so don't get testy.

It's not constructive criticism, it's deconstructive criticism. You can only be constructive if you accept the premise of the project you're critiquing. Since you flatly state you just want as much stuff in the game as possible and disagree with any mod removing them for more accuracy you can't offer any constructive criticism in regards to this mod. It's like saying "I disagree with the principles of democracy. Now here, let me tell you how to run your democracy". What is one supposed to do with "it falls flat" anyway? It's vague and non-specific.

Furthermore, I doubt you played through the mod very much at all or you would have noticed that there actually are still units in it armed with only katana, it's just that they spawn as rebels or brigands and are not recruitable as regular units, which is reasonable. I mean, you could have noticed that had you even bothered to read the thread through though. BTW, you're not doing me any favors "taking the time to download it" when it takes me about 100 times more to make it. You seem to say that like it's some great service to me, LOL.

I have to disagree with your equivocating the katana to a pistol. Perhaps if you were to equate the pistol to say, a wakizashi that may be more to the point. And yes, it is your impression, regarding what and how many weapons were used, not fact.

Actually no, the wakizashi would be more like having a WW2 unit of "Combat Knife Infantry". As a katana is a sidearm the metaphor is entirely apt. And sorry, but records explicitly detailing how daimyo armed their men, written by the daimyo's or their staff, are not matters of interpretation. Why do you seem to believe it's some great impenetrable mystery how armies were composed and fought during the period? Are we unable to say we know anything about history unless we invent time machines and observe events personally? It's not like you're even bothering to provide any evidence or arguments for why you think the mod is not more or less historical than vanilla, you're just baldly asserting it in one-liners. Very constructive.

You also still are ignoring the more important point I made, that sword samurai units don't really serve any unique functional purpose in regards to gameplay that aren't being better, and more logically, filled out by other units and hence it's waste for the player, and especially the AI, to be recruiting them. Again, I doubt you played much or you would have noticed the AI handles things better when it's not being saddled with needless complexity and redundancy. And of course, you're also ingoring the point there's still more troop types and faction unique units in the mod than in vanilla which is somehow less flat (and more fizzy?) than this despite having less units. I guess those sword samurai are just really supercool!












Haha, you know what man? You're totally right actually. I mean, all those historians are just intrepreting things anyway right? Who can trust thsoe eggheads anyway? I've thought up some more cool units, inspired by your constructive criticism. Tell me what you think about these, I think they'll add a lot to gameplay. There's even awesome pix now so I hope that seals it for you.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

SQUALL GUNBLADERS


KISHO CATGIRLS


JACKIE CHAN KARATE-KICKERS


GATLING GUN GREAT GUARD


SCIENTOLOGIST SAMURAI


YELLOW TERROR ASHIGARU


LADYBOY BUSHI


CHOPSTICKS HERO


HELLO KITTY HATAMOTO


OVERACTOR RONIN


WAKKA-WAKKA WAKO

[AnimaMea]

New units and removal of katana samurai shot a new lease of life into a game that was starting to piss me off quite badly, Thanks once again General; looking forward to updates, though at the moment it's pretty faultless

[olliehax]

how do i get this to work with darth mod exactly....

[olliehax]

Also do i have to have both the mutant.pack, aaaand the zen mutant pack in the dat folder ?

[Seikales]

Hey olihax,

The ZenMutant version and Mutant Mod are pretty similar. Yet, Mutant Mod differs in certain settings, unit stats and projectile settings. However, both has the same grand outfit, because I inherit General Malaise great work with units.

Now, if you want to play ZenMutant mod, you need to just get that file. If you want to play Mutant Mod, you need mutant.pack. And change your user.script accordingly. They are at the moment two different mods.

If I can convince General Malaise to give a try to my Mutant Mod, perhaps we can unite the two mods. So, there won't be a Zen, ZenMutant and Mutant Mod triple mod issue. But that's another story.

So in short: Use either ZenMutant or Mutant, not them together. Cheers

[Durruti1936]

Ahh thanks very much for the mod, General, it was just what I was looking for (and a few others on the official site forum if some of the discussions were anything to go by).

It certainly matches up closer to my reading on historical reality - within the constraints of the game engine (mixed weapon types within a unit not being possible). Huzzah for no more daft Edo period fantasy pop-culture stuff like "battlefield ninjaz" and katana-wielding hordes! In fact I've held off buying the game until now but I think you've just swung it for me

[General Malaise]

how do i get this to work with darth mod exactly....

You just download the Darthmod version and drop the data pack into your data folder, making sure to use the user script. Same for the mutant version. Both already include versions of those mods in them, you don't need to download them separately. I will make that more clear in the first post I guess.

]Ahh thanks very much for the mod, General, it was just what I was looking for (and a few others on the official site forum if some of the discussions were anything to go by).

It certainly matches up closer to my reading on historical reality - within the constraints of the game engine (mixed weapon types within a unit not being possible). Huzzah for no more daft Edo period fantasy pop-culture stuff like "battlefield ninjaz" and katana-wielding hordes! In fact I've held off buying the game until now but I think you've just swung it for me

Thanks for the nice comments.

I think it would be possible, looking at some unit variety mods, to actually make units that look like they have ashigaru and samurai intermixed but the problem is they'd still have the same weapons, the same stats (it's by unit as a whole) and you can't set the ratios of samurai uniform to ashigaru uniform. On top of that, if you want real hardcore historical you're looking at 4, at least non-capped, units: Yarigumi, Yumigumi, Teppogumi (which mostly replaces the previous), and Mushagumi (cav in small numbers). Hopefully ZenMod can be considered a decent compromise with history and fun.

New units and removal of katana samurai shot a new lease of life into a game that was starting to piss me off quite badly, Thanks once again General; looking forward to updates, though at the moment it's pretty faultless

Thanks. Not entirely faultless now though, as I've noticed there's some issues with the Ikko Ikki changes I made as I cannot test them as CA so magnanimously decided to lock everyone out of playing them, even in custom battles using a faction unlocker.



Try this patch if you like and see if it stops the Ikko from recruiting normal Ashigaru in addition to their Ikko Ikki Ashigaru. Anyone testing out would be great because, again, I can't check except by playing out campaigns which is not exactly time efficient.

(no user script needed)
http://www.zshare.net/download/90228709f1a07dbb/

[Durruti1936]

Thanks for the nice comments.

I think it would be possible, looking at some unit variety mods, to actually make units that look like they have ashigaru and samurai intermixed but the problem is they'd still have the same weapons, the same stats (it's by unit as a whole) and you can't set the ratios of samurai uniform to ashigaru uniform. On top of that, if you want real hardcore historical you're looking at 4, at least non-capped, units: Yarigumi, Yumigumi, Teppogumi (which mostly replaces the previous), and Mushagumi (cav in small numbers). Hopefully ZenMod can be considered a decent compromise with history and fun.

That might be an interesting possibility but, like you say, I think games aiming for a balance of immersive historical accuracy and fun playability are what I personally find most enjoyable. If you were to go for the appearance of mixed units then I see no problem with having an "averaging" factor to the unit stats which is pretty much what you get in the tabletop miniature wargame rules I've played over the years.

My own favourite Japanese period is the 12th-14th centuries (Gempei War and the rest) where you have arguably less troop types though you could introduce lots of nuances with slightly better horse archers for some clans and tough rustic melee fighters from the north eastern provinces for variety. Then you have all the dueling heroes. After that it comes down to concentrating on game and role play on a level playing field rather than chasing after myriad "ZOMG" exotic (ahistorical...) troop types that "some people" crave (love the satirical new proposed units haha)

All the best.

[General Malaise]

A few things. One, I noticed someone put up an entry for ZenMod on the TWCwiki. Thanks whoever that was. However, you put up some screenshots in it that were from vanilla not my mod!

Also, am busy again this week so next update will be slow. Hard to keep up with both Darth and the patches and then testing and fixing stuff myself.

Lastly, for anyone who is using non-english version I believe Swiss's latest or maybe next UPC update should include the files for my units so you don't get blank unit names.

Then you have all the dueling heroes. After that it comes down to concentrating on game and role play on a level playing field rather than chasing after myriad "ZOMG" exotic (ahistorical...) troop types that "some people" crave

Yeah I was wondering what all the fuss about taking about katana samurai was about, then I noticed by accident while perusing the official forums people talking about how they were a win-button against anything but horses. Makes sense now why someone would be so grumpy I pulled them heh.

(love the satirical new proposed units haha)

All the best.

Thanks, I was wondering when someone was going to comment on those.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Blather blather blather

Sorry, I had to cut your rant short. Look, you can paint a smiley face on a rock and say it's an historical accurate depiction of an ashigaru all you want, but that doesn't make it so. All you've done is change some stats and shuffle some skins around, and remove gameplay balance. The 'mod' looks no more or less historical than any other. It's just really not that good. I tossed it in the trashcan and went back to Darth. Keep trying though, li'll buddy.

[General Malaise]

Also, lazy troll is lazy.

If you're going to use the pretense of "constructive criticism" to act like a cranky arse here, perhaps because you're still sore I made fun of you in another thread when you were whining about how lack of stuff (I mean "content" ) means lack of depth and were equating graphics with gameplay, then try sticking with it by bothering to actually respond when someone takes the bait instead of just ignoring up the whole post and repeating the same vapid one-liners again. Very dissapointed but then I guess I should have expected as much from someone whose "argument" consists of "taking mah awzum swerd manz broek teh gamez fer meh".


I mean, seriously "lil buddy"? Okay Andy Griffith. You could have at least went with a "son", a "champ", or a "kiddo". Any other hackneyed diminuitive from some goof affecting some kind of paternalistic superiority is better than lil' buddy. I go to the trouble of coming up with all sorts of amusing pictures and even give you the benefit of the doubt with detailed, in-depth responses (which is a "rant" to those of poor reading comprehension and short attention span apparently) before that and this is the best you can give? I mean you even made it obvious from the start you didn't really play it before you tried this, since, as I've pointed out many times now, there's still sword units in the mod.

I rate your posts 1/5. Keep at it lil' buddy!

[SplaTt]

Hello. I have dropped files where I should according to readme file, but my game gets CTD before i even get into game menu or game cinematic. What do i do?

[General Malaise]

Most common reason it seems for that is people leaving other mods in their data folders before trying to load new ones. Trying clear your data folder of all mods first, then loading, then trying to add other ones back in is a good idea.

Second most common probably is errors with the user script. Do you now have other entries in there? If you do, and they are compatible make sure ZenMod entry is at the top of the user script. Also, make sure if you just dropped my included script file in there that it was in the %appdata% scripts folder and overwrote any old one in there.

Did you also download the latest patch? Probably, because it's automatic, but you might have turned it off. Other than those things, I can't think of anything else that would be causing a CTD except maybe a corrupt download.

[dannydandy]

it seems that the light cav has been replaced by the dragoon unit, but it seems weird that clans recruit dragoons as their basic cav unit, especially before they open up their markets for muskets! i wonder where they get the guns for their dragoons?

[General Malaise]

They don't recruit the dragoon unit before they get guns, unless something is bugged. However they start off with dragoons in the beginning and I'd have to edit the startpos.esf to get rid of them. I believe they also spawn as rebels occasionally. Too much work fussing with startpos.esf I think for that, especially when guns were actually around in Japan quite earlier than the game portrays them. The Nanban were already trading two years before the game actually starts.