What is the Case for Alimony in Modern Society??

[jankren]

For those who dont know, alimony is not child support. I strongly believe in child support. However, Im unconvinced with the concept of alimony.

Maybe in the past when there was no gender equality, alimony might be a fair safety net for women.

However, today alimony seems to merely be a safety net for the uneducated and unambitious spouse. I see no reason why upon a divorce, a man or a woman has to temporarily or permanently support the former spouse. A divorcee's inability to stand on his/her own feet should be his/her own fault. I understand that some people say that women who stay home taking care of their children should be compensated for the opportunity lost. But I disagree. I think its their fault for agreeing to be stay at home moms. Both of my own parents worked when I was small. During my early years I was cared for by a nanny, my grandma and my aunt. And I believe I came out okay. Now both of my parents have their own careers and it is good financially for my family.

I believe in a case of divorce, the wealthier spouse should pay child support until the children come of age if there is kids. However, he/she should not be obliged to pay any additional money to the former spouse.

So what exactly is a strong argument for alimony in an egalitarian modern society?

[Captain Jin]

I agree. Alimony is a crock of .

[Blau&Gruen]

So what exactly is a strong argument for alimony in an egalitarian modern society?

An argument for alimony is that the economically independent or more independent partner has an obligation to help the economically less independent to come in a situation where economical independence can be achieved. People need to be able to make their living. The argument would be: Aliment are a legitimate claim for private help during a transitional period of time. I think this could be one aspect, not excluding that you could argument differently.

[jankren]

An argument for alimony is that the economically independent or more independent partner has an obligation to help the economically less independent to come in a situation where economical independence can be achieved. People need to be able to make their living. The argument would be: Aliment are a legitimate claim for private help during a transitional period of time. I think this could be one aspect, not excluding that you could argument differently.

Just to give a crude analogy, why should anyone be obliged to continue to pay the lease on a car once the contract is over and that person no longer uses the car? And for example if upon divorce a man is still obliged to provide for his wife, doesnt that mean that the wife should still cook, clean, and have sex with him? Why the burden only goes one way?

[Himster]

Just to give a crude analogy, why should anyone be obliged to continue to pay the lease on a car once the contract is over and that person no longer uses the car? And for example if upon divorce a man is still obliged to provide for his wife, doesnt that mean that the wife should still cook, clean, and have sex with him? Why the burden only goes one way?

In the civilised world a man doesn't own a woman the way he would own a car: cooking, cleaning and sexual services were obligatory in our barbaric past: a marriage is a contract where all wealth is shared, a divorce means that that wealth needs to be divided. Sometimes that wealth is not easily divisible, this is the only time that alimony should be neccessary, alimony can also come in the form of altruism.

[Blau&Gruen]

Just to give a crude analogy, why should anyone be obliged to continue to pay the lease on a car once the contract is over and that person no longer uses the car? And for example if upon divorce a man is still obliged to provide for his wife, doesnt that mean that the wife should still cook, clean, and have sex with him? Why the burden only goes one way?

It depends on how civil law regulates these issues. I think it should go into both directions and the outlines should either follow a mutual agreement that has been made in advance or be orientated on the economic situation that is in place during the relation. The car analogy is insofar not applicable here as both bring some assets into the relation and generate maybe further during the time they are together. The point - well, intimate relations require that two individuals agree on having them each time. You can't claim it simply for standing in relation to someone - and I am not certain that persons that separate really would want to be intimate at that moment, so my guess.

[th0mas890]

Well first we have to be in an egalitarian society for your case to hold, and I can tell you women do not enjoy equality in any way economically.

The money is vital in the cases where Mother works and looks after the kids still cannot financially support them. This can also not be put down to individual agency.

[conon394]

However, he/she should not be obliged to pay any additional money to the former spouse.

So what exactly is a strong argument for alimony in an egalitarian modern society?

I'd say there is still reasons for it, but it needs to be fair and case by case. Modern society is not absolutely egalitarian - the male female pay gap is still a reality, and there is in general for tenure (or comparable academic contracts in more recent research-type appointments) no 'time out' for maturity leave or pregnancy. Thus if one spouse can show that he or she actively sacrificed education or career opportunities to bear a disproportionate child care load, there is far reasons for one side to pay alimony. That being said it should always be reasonable. I mean even if say a man sacrificed his career for his wife to go to art school but she is not making much money that I say he retains a residual right to some payment it she suddenly hits fame and fortune, but not some demand for money she does not have at the time if she has no money and not a perpetual right to income forever (it seems to me it one thing if he was a homemaker for 2 years or 20 the length of the relationship and absence for the job market being key).

A women who married out of HS and did nothing but keep home and raise children while her husband worked is the easy case and deserves some additional compensation becuse society simply does not value that role - she earned no Social Security credits, and no matter how much she might parlay raising kids and managing a home into job skill in an interview she will rarely make the HR cut with no 'real' experience. Agian balanced by time a 2 year marrage is not a 30 year one.

Without children I think the issue is clear and I think unless one party could clearly show there was a fundamental choice for one person to be a 'home maker' I don't think there a good case to made for Alimony, since its not like much stigma attaches to those who divorce, etc.

[the_mango55]

I'd say there is still reasons for it, but it needs to be fair and case by case. Modern society is not absolutely egalitarian - the male female pay gap is still a reality

This is because of the jobs generally taken by women, not because employers discrimnate when handing out paychecks.

Women and men get paid pretty much equally for doing the same job, but women are more likely to work lower paying positions. "Pink collar" jobs like secretary and clerk are lower paying than "blue collar" jobs like construction worker and plumber.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Wait... there's countries where you have to give money to your ex-wife even if there's not a child to support?

I mean in a systematically disintegrating society like the modern one child support seems completely reasonable and a good form of forcing responsibility and bonds upon individuals... but giving money to competent adults who more or less can get the same wage as you?

[xcorps]

Wait... there's countries where you have to give money to your ex-wife even if there's not a child to support?

I mean in a systematically disintegrating society like the modern one child support seems completely reasonable and a good form of forcing responsibility and bonds upon individuals... but giving money to competent adults who more or less can get the same wage as you?

There are different types of alimony. Few states have permanent alimony any more. Usually alimony is awarded for expenses or for a period of time so that a spouse can begin working. In my first divorce, my wife was granted an alimony award in that I had to continue to pay the rent and utilities for 4 months, because she was pregnant and couldn't work. Perfectly reasonable.

[conon394]

This is because of the jobs generally taken by women, not because employers discrimnate when handing out paychecks.

Women and men get paid pretty much equally for doing the same job, but women are more likely to work lower paying positions. "Pink collar" jobs like secretary and clerk are lower paying than "blue collar" jobs like construction worker and plumber.

Sorry Statisticians are not idiots in general even inside of of similar jobs and correcting for education and experience the pay gap remains and grows over time. Look up some of the studies that focus on management or academic positions for example.

Wait... there's countries where you have to give money to your ex-wife even if there's not a child to support?

It more or less not a wife thing but spouse thing. Consider what if two people marry at 18 one works at war mart supporting the pair and one finishes a law degree. At that point rather than supporting the working spouse as he/she then seeks to complete a degree the spouse with the law degree and a law career files for divorce. Its not far fetched to say the other spouse can argue he/she has a reasonable expectation of some support for a period of time to complete higher education also rather than be trapped in a menial career that financed the other's advanced degree. Again not a right but a tool to unwind the contractual obligations of a marriage.

[the_mango55]

Sorry Statisticians are not idiots in general even inside of of similar jobs and correcting for education and experience the pay gap remains and grows over time. Loup some of the studies that focous on management or academic positions for example.

links?

[MathiasOfAthens]

Prob is some states abuse this by forcing men who are less financially stable or dont even have a job to keep paying. They end up going into debt or worse go to Jail for not paying Alimony. But conservatives wont allocate more funds from the state to help women.

[Big War Bird]

As an unambitious spouse myself, I'm damn glad I could get alimony if my wife left me.

[MathiasOfAthens]

As an unambitious spouse myself, I'm damn glad I could get alimony if my wife left me.

I didnt know men could get aid from their kids mother.

On another topic dont you and your wife share your company?

[Big War Bird]

I didnt know men could get aid from their kids mother.

Why couldn't he? If she is earning all the money then she has to pay him. I sacrificed my job and career so that she could have every opportunity to succeed in her career and we decided that I would not have a full time job so that our kids would not be raised by someone else.

On another topic dont you and your wife share your company?

We do, though she is the one on the payroll do the daily work and earning the income. I just help out with a smattering of things from time to time.

[jankren]

Why couldn't he? If she is earning all the money then she has to pay him. I sacrificed my job and career so that she could have every opportunity to succeed in her career and we decided that I would not have a full time job so that our kids would not be raised by someone else.

If your marriage didnt work out, it would be your own fault for not making as much as her. She shouldnt have any responsibility to support you afterwards.

Let the kids be taken care of by a nanny. I was raised by a nanny and Im damn glad that my parents decided to pursue their careers because now I dont even have to pay for my own school.

[Big War Bird]

If your marriage didnt work out, it would be your own fault for not making as much as her. She shouldnt have any responsibility to support you afterwards.

Let the kids be taken care of by a nanny. I was raised by a nanny and Im damn glad that my parents decided to pursue their careers because now I dont even have to pay for my own school.

With logic like that I can certainly understand why your parents think you need more education.

[conon394]

links?

No problem if you don't mind waiting till tonight or a bit later