What if Saruman do a bit smarter things

[Rahwana]

Ok, so basically, at the start of Sauron's rise to power Gandalf still consider Saruman as his superrior, and even ask him for counsel and help. Too bad, we all know that Saruman just open his cover and imprison Gandalf (and ultimately earn the free people's enemity)

Ok, he allready raise a huge host of uruk army ready and ultimately, he want to get hold of the one ring as well. But, why he didn't consider this strategy?

1) instead of directly open his cover (by imprisoning gandalf), he can say he "agreed" to help (well, remember, Saruman's level is equal or even a bit higher than Gandalf, so he obviously can conceal his deeper evil intent, as long as he is careful).
2) when Gandalf ask "why you breed uruk hai? and give them men flesh to eat?" I wonder what happened if Saruman just say "We should fight fire with fire, Sauron have numerous horde of Orcs and Uruks, I can raise my own too, and they are better discipline than him . and oh, about the men flesh, I got that from those Dunlendings, they are stupid on the verge of monkey, so, just pretend I fed them with monkey flesh) - or better plan, just pretend that aren't men flesh, those meat are pork/beef!
3) and if everything goes nice, Saruman will help the fellowship, and when Frodo appears in front of him, he'll just need to say "I need to get my hold on your ring", and frodo will just gave it to him (remember, gandalf and galadriel refuse the ring, but if Saruman really want it, he can overpower the ring with his strength I think)

and... after Sauron is done, he can start his work in better situations, he can just backstab the exhausted alliance and overpower them instantly

what do you think?

because Saruman deserves better end than being killed by Grima

[Prdo]

1) i agree
2) i dont remember when gandalf have asked saruman "why you breed uruk hai?
3) how u can possibly know that frodo will give him a ring?

Saruman, being a Maia, did not truly die. His spirit separated from his body much like Sauron's after the Downfall of Númenor. As an incorporeal spirit, he should have been called to Mandos but the tale implies that he was barred from returning. Tolkien indicated that his spirit was left naked, powerless and wandering, never to return to Middle-earth:

"Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back"

[Rahwana]

gandalf never ask Saruman about his uruk in the book

but if he agreed to help gandalf, I bet Gandalf will ask, obviously (A wizzard breed uruks? WAT? Uruk on the "good side" )

[wlesmana]

1) He's siding with Sauron. You can't play the Dark Lord like that, either the Dark Lord demanded full loyalty (which Saruman is already lacking) or not to bother and he'd crush you too. He was instead trying to get Gandalf to join the "winning side". Remember that Saruman already scouted the armies of the good guys and the bad guys and he could see how much the difference in strength.
2) He can't. The good guys do not trust orcs at all. They'll demand they be purged. Note how in all of Middle-earth history, no one ever tried to live side by side with orcs in peace because it is impossible.
3) There wasn't a Fellowship when he blew his cover. In fact he thought Sauron got it back, thus why he switched allegiance. If Saruman got the Ring, he would be the new Dark Lord, probably a mix of Saruman and Sauron.

[Rahwana]

I wonder if Saruman is either too optimistic or simply having a bad choice of actions in case of his alliances, sure, Sauron demands full loyalty, but if he look at least for Gandalf's optimism, he can deduce that "the good side" has the ring.

and in case of hypothetical Isengard-Mordor wars if that happened, Mordor maybe more numerous, but Saruman's uruk hai are better trained and equipped.

well, good guys didn't trust the orcs, but at least Saruman could pretend to say "Leave my Uruk hai alone!", and he can just prove that by marching his uruk army to help Gondor in war (and some friendly stuffs to the good guy).

and we know that Saruman falls because he wrongly gauge the Sauron's arsenal... but can't he sense Sauron's power? if he allready have the ring or not?

[nhinhonhinho]

Hm to me Saruman was unwise because he wasn't breed enough Uruk-hai and made a wrong strategy and tactic!

1.Well at first he got 10.000 Uruk-hai to assault Hemls-Deep! It's better to have 100.000!
2.He made a strategic failure. It's better to crush all other cities, destroy true Rohan army before march to the fortress of Helm-Deep
3.He stupidly left his headquarter Isengard nearly defenseless! He should held back a considerable force to defense it or clean the ents first. Uruk-Hai can be breed again and again.
4.He should create more siege weapons and make use of gunpowder more than he did.

[Mataputas]

3) and if everything goes nice, Saruman will help the fellowship, and when Frodo appears in front of him, he'll just need to say "I need to get my hold on your ring", and frodo will just gave it to him (remember, gandalf and galadriel refuse the ring, but if Saruman really want it, he can overpower the ring with his strength I think)

If Saruman got the Ring, he would be the new Dark Lord, probably a mix of Saruman and Sauron.

From what I understand, noone except Sauron can control the one ring. If Saruman could get it, he'd just be in some way, sooner or later, exhausted by the ring of power, his mind would be deceived and in the best of cases, he'd just become Sauron's puppet. Just remember Isildur. The ring played a trick on him, and he finished being food for fishes.

Anyway, we're just making counterfactuals, so there's no right or wrong position.


EDIT: I've just read the message before this, and I want to answer:

1.- 10.000 against 300 + 100 elves + 1 dwarf wouldn't be enough for you at first glance?
2.- As far as I understand, he overrun all minor Rohan cities before going to helm's deep. There was no loyal Rohirrims from his point of view, remember Gandalf went to gather them together. And in the case he knew that, it would have been wise to hurry the attack before all the rohirims came back to aid their king
3.- That's the price of sending more men to helm's deep. It's a trade of. Anyway, there were some orcs at Orthanc defending, but take into account that nobody would think of Ents making war...
4.- He could have created some more cavalry, as well Well, it's true they didn't have many catapults, but they made a hole in the wall, and that's enough from my point of view. Remember it's middle earth, not current times, so gunpowder and bombs were not something easy to get...

[timpi]

From what I understand, noone except Sauron can control the one ring. If Saruman could get it, he'd just be in some way, sooner or later, exhausted by the ring of power, his mind would be deceived and in the best of cases, he'd just become Sauron's puppet. Just remember Isildur. The ring played a trick on him, and he finished being food for fishes.

Anyway, we're just making counterfactuals, so there's no right or wrong position.

Saruman is, just as Sauron, a Maiar and he is already corrupted by evil. I think that if Gandalf would want to be bad, he could just use the ring. I suppose that every evil Maiar can use the ring.

[Prdo]

umm, saruman wans't man he was maia like sauron so i think he could control it...

[Mataputas]

Ok, but he's not Sauron, and he didn't forge the ring.

He's not afraid of the ring because of his arrogance and his thirst of power. But that doesn't mean he'd be able to deal with it when he gets it.

[timpi]

Ok, but he's not Sauron, and he didn't forge the ring.

He's not afraid of the ring because of his arrogance and his thirst of power. But that doesn't mean he'd be able to deal with it when he gets it.

We don't now how he will be affected by the ring. Saruman is just as Sauron, an evil Maiar. So I think that the ring will only make Saruman stronger and more evil.

[Mataputas]

Well, as I said before, this is just counterfactual thinking... it didn't happen, so we will never know what would have happened.

[Spike]

Hmm, and Saruman is failed with his motivations from the very start, and Valars don't like everyody who make mess directly by being obviously evil (tm)

Of course, If Saruman are a bit smarter, he can do some better things by promoting Men-Orc equality, and try to portay himself try to free the opressed beings (orcs and uruks), that way, at least, from extended socialism points of view, he was doing something "right"

[Mataputas]

You'd like Isengard becoming the USSR of Middle Earth, right?

[Rahwana]

You'd like Isengard becoming the USSR of Middle Earth, right?

Industrialized, Lay waste to Nature, having a massive army that was ferocious, brutal, and most disciplined as well as fearless; and having Stalin like figure head

So why the Orcs can exist despite being twisted creatures that was mockery of everything good? Did the valars never consider the Orcs' feelings and equality?

IF Saruman just a bit show better tendency towards human, I bet he can be more sucessful in the long terms. Remember the Dunlendings trust him (well, Dunlendings are backward "idiots", but they are still men too)

[timpi]

You'd like Isengard becoming the USSR of Middle Earth, right?

That was kind of Tolkiens intention!
(I'm serious)

[Mataputas]

That was kind of Tolkiens intention!
(I'm serious)

So, what was Mordor, then? If you want a real similarity with WW2, I'd say Mordor looks like Nazi Germany and Isengard looks like Italy, as Isengard is in some way a puppet of Mordor, with the intention of gaining power, but not being in the main role.

Anyway, afaik, the only thing in common would be the desire of power and the hatred towards other peoples. Any further comparison with WW2 looks far from what Tolkien is telling. From my point of view, it's just another story with the same inicial idea of good vs evil.

[timpi]

So, what was Mordor, then? If you want a real similarity with WW2, I'd say Mordor looks like Nazi Germany and Isengard looks like Italy, as Isengard is in some way a puppet of Mordor, with the intention of gaining power, but not being in the main role.

Anyway, afaik, the only thing in common would be the desire of power and the hatred towards other peoples. Any further comparison with WW2 looks far from what Tolkien is telling. From my point of view, it's just another story with the same inicial idea of good vs evil.

Tolkiens stories contain more symbolism than any other work. The things he has written stand for ancient legends and also for things that Tolkien and the people around him believed.

Eru Iluvatar=God
Ainur=Angels
Melkor Morgoth=Satan(once an angel, now evil)
Sauron and Balrogs=Devils
Gandalf could be any profet
In the days of Tolkien, people said that black people were 'evile =>southerlings
And sorry for the mistake that I've made but:
Mordor: unnown faction, if you look at the map you could say that it is Transsylvania, land of Dracula(Here we can see Tolkiens love for legends)
Southerlings= evil, black people
Easterlings= barbarians, steppe people that really want power= USSR(not my oppinion but Tolkiens)
Isengard=Nazi germany, industrialisation, using people who don't ask questions, murdering the people of rohan
Anduin= The Channel

Gondor= the land that is bravely defending the channel = Great Britain
Rohan= The jews, massacered by evil forces OR Poland, France,... lands taken by evil forces

Note:These assumptions are never proved but even Christopher Tolkien thinks that his father meant it this way.

[fd7s]

Tolkiens stories contain more symbolism than any other work. The things he has written stand for ancient legends and also for things that Tolkien and the people around him believed.

Eru Iluvatar=God
Ainur=Angels
Melkor Morgoth=Satan(once an angel, now evil)
Sauron and Balrogs=Devils
Gandalf could be any profet
In the days of Tolkien, people said that black people were 'evile =>southerlings
And sorry for the mistake that I've made but:
Mordor: unnown faction, if you look at the map you could say that it is Transsylvania, land of Dracula(Here we can see Tolkiens love for legends)
Southerlings= evil, black people
Easterlings= barbarians, steppe people that really want power= USSR(not my oppinion but Tolkiens)
Isengard=Nazi germany, industrialisation, using people who don't ask questions, murdering the people of rohan
Anduin= The Channel

Gondor= the land that is bravely defending the channel = Great Britain
Rohan= The jews, massacered by evil forces OR Poland, France,... lands taken by evil forces

Note:These assumptions are never proved but even Christopher Tolkien thinks that his father meant it this way.

thought rohan was made out of tolkiens love for horses?

[The Despondent Mind]

Isengard reminded me more on NAZI Germany . White hand,Superior Race,Industry...