Tea Party activist/GOP official circulates another racist email re: Obama

[tarvu]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...d_threats.html

I don't read the daily news, but it at least recaps the event. Marilyn Davenport an Orange County Republican Central Committee (or simply the OCRCC as it is more commonly known), and tea party activist sent out an email with a family of chimpanzees dressed like humans with a photo of Obama pasted over the baby chimpanzee's face. Underneath was a caption "The real reason Obama won't show his birth certificate".

If anyone does not understand the history of racism regarding the chimpanzee/monkey-black people comparison in America I can explain it to you. However I'd think it is kind of self explanatory if you think about it for a second.

Tell me again how there is no racism among the tea party/republican activists, because it looks more and more like the extreme "conservative groups" in the 60's to me. She hasn't been fired, and she probably won't because I get emails like this in my email all the time forwarded to me by fmr. coworkers and I'm sure just about anyone else who has any connection to these groups. Is this where the political discourse in the United States is going? Do I need to dust off my black beret, leather jacket, and armband again?

[(s)AINT]

Stupid . Doesn't she realize that we all evolved? I could make the same picture with her face.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Stupid . Doesn't she realize that we all evolved? I could make the same picture with her face.

If that's so then why is it racist?

[Snoopy]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...d_threats.html

I don't read the daily news, but it at least recaps the event. Marilyn Davenport an Orange County Republican Central Committee (or simply the OCRCC as it is more commonly known), and tea party activist sent out an email with a family of chimpanzees dressed like humans with a photo of Obama pasted over the baby chimpanzee's face. Underneath was a caption "The real reason Obama won't show his birth certificate".

If anyone does not understand the history of racism regarding the chimpanzee/monkey-black people comparison in America I can explain it to you. However I'd think it is kind of self explanatory if you think about it for a second.

Tell me again how there is no racism among the tea party/republican activists, because it looks more and more like the extreme "conservative groups" in the 60's to me. She hasn't been fired, and she probably won't because I get emails like this in my email all the time forwarded to me by fmr. coworkers and I'm sure just about anyone else who has any connection to these groups. Is this where the political discourse in the United States is going? Do I need to dust off my black beret, leather jacket, and armband again?

You found a racist tea partier! CONGRATULATIONS!

Now here is a lefty mocking an infant with downs syndrome : http://weaselzippers.us/2011/04/20/u...owns-syndrome/


Ergo, all liberals mock infants with downs syndrome. The liberal movement in the US is clearly infected with bigotry!

Wait, that ISN'T how it works? You mean a very small minority of bigots does not necessarily represent the group as a whole? Oh.

Also, I love how you equate NATIONAL SOCIALISTS to small-government tea party members. I don't recall the NATIONAL SOCIALISTS supporting decentralization or cuts to government spending. Actually, come to think of it, they supported things that no self-respecting tea partier (even a racist one) would go for, like outright nationalization, government enforced cartels, near complete government control of the economy, and extreme centralization. Actually, come to think of it, the LIBERALS seem to advocate some of that. Does that mean the LIBERALS are actually Nazis?


Oh wait. You can't equate a group with a far extreme, negatively viewed group based on tenuous connections in policy. Sure would be nice if people actually bothered with that rather than simply skipping and and going for bombastic comparisons between the Tea Party and the Nazis.

[tarvu]

You found a racist tea partier! CONGRATULATIONS!

Now here is a lefty mocking an infant with downs syndrome : http://weaselzippers.us/2011/04/20/u...owns-syndrome/


Ergo, all liberals mock infants with downs syndrome. The liberal movement in the US is clearly infected with bigotry!

Wait, that ISN'T how it works? You mean a very small minority of bigots does not necessarily represent the group as a whole? Oh.

Also, I love how you equate NATIONAL SOCIALISTS to small-government tea party members. I don't recall the NATIONAL SOCIALISTS supporting decentralization or cuts to government spending. Actually, come to think of it, they supported things that no self-respecting tea partier (even a racist one) would go for, like outright nationalization, government enforced cartels, near complete government control of the economy, and extreme centralization. Actually, come to think of it, the LIBERALS seem to advocate some of that. Does that mean the LIBERALS are actually Nazis?


Oh wait. You can't equate a group with a far extreme, negatively viewed group based on tenuous connections in policy. Sure would be nice if people actually bothered with that rather than simply skipping and and going for bombastic comparisons between the Tea Party and the Nazis.

Let's see one is self promotion of a "shock" blog called weasel zippers by a person who seems to have mental/emotional problems of his own, the other is a person who actually belongs to those organizations. Also racist emails are common in tea party/conservative circles whereas I (as a liberal) have never once seen that blog you are referring to.

When an executive at NPR made a remark in private (not in a chain email) that many Tea Party members were racist (factual statement) he was forced to resign over the controversy. When a republican official sends out a racist email (business as usual for conservative "satire") she not only doesn't lose her job, but most conservatives apparently have the option of simply ignoring it.

The real difference though is that liberal politicians allow themselves to be held accountable not only for what they say, but what is said in their name whereas conservatives apparently excuse all evidence of racism in their ranks by pointing out that not everyone is racist. Well if you aren't willing to speak out against racism by your own supporters then I think that says something either about your true feelings on the topic or your personal integrity.

The tea party and republican grassroots efforts are fueled in a significant part by people who are clearly racists, it is obvious they are aware of this but they do nothing to stop it because it works in their favor and riles up their political base.

Also national socialists? I must have missed something in my own post I certainly wasn't eluding to national socialists anywhere in there.

[Nevins]

Let's see one is self promotion of a "shock" blog called weasel zippers by a person who seems to have mental/emotional problems of his own, the other is a person who actually belongs to those organizations. Also racist emails are common in tea party/conservative circles whereas I (as a liberal) have never once seen that blog you are referring to.

When an executive at NPR made a remark in private (not in a chain email) that many Tea Party members were racist (factual statement) he was forced to resign over the controversy. When a republican official sends out a racist email (business as usual for conservative "satire") she not only doesn't lose her job, but most conservatives apparently have the option of simply ignoring it.

The real difference though is that liberal politicians allow themselves to be held accountable not only for what they say, but what is said in their name whereas conservatives apparently excuse all evidence as racism by pointing out that not everyone is racist. Well if you aren't willing to speak out against racism by your own supporters then I think that says something either about your true feelings on the topic or your personal integrity.

The tea party and republican grassroots efforts are fueled in a significant part by people who are clearly racists, it is obvious they are aware of this but they do nothing to stop it because it works in their favor and riles up their political base.

Also national socialists? I must have missed something in my own post I certainly wasn't eluding to national socialists anywhere in there.

Do you have a single source to support your claim that "A significant part... are clearly racist"?

[mrmouth]

Do you have a single source to support your claim that "A significant part... are clearly racist"?

A lot of commentators that I respect (the few left), and subsequently myself, think the undertones are fairly strong within the TP. There is enough to go on at this point, but not enough to ever bring someone who is going to raise typical argument about categorizing everyone as a racist, or the more apt term: bigot--

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

It isn't that every TP party member would be a bigot, or even use bigotry to advance their politics, its that it is pretty clear that the TP has a good amount of those people in positions of leadership. And personally, I do think that a TP member would be predisposed to using bigotry as a political tactic, or as something to further bury the common sense voice inside all of us.

[Snoopy]

Let's see one is self promotion of a "shock" blog called weasel zippers by a person who seems to have mental/emotional problems of his own, the other is a person who actually belongs to those organizations. Also racist emails are common in tea party/conservative circles whereas I (as a liberal) have never once seen that blog you are referring to.

When an executive at NPR made a remark in private (not in a chain email) that many Tea Party members were racist (factual statement) he was forced to resign over the controversy. When a republican official sends out a racist email (business as usual for conservative "satire") she not only doesn't lose her job, but most conservatives apparently have the option of simply ignoring it.

The real difference though is that liberal politicians allow themselves to be held accountable not only for what they say, but what is said in their name whereas conservatives apparently excuse all evidence as racism by pointing out that not everyone is racist. Well if you aren't willing to speak out against racism by your own supporters then I think that says something either about your true feelings on the topic or your personal integrity.

The tea party and republican grassroots efforts are fueled in a significant part by people who are clearly racists, it is obvious they are aware of this but they do nothing to stop it because it works in their favor and riles up their political base.

Also national socialists? I must have missed something in my own post I certainly wasn't eluding to national socialists anywhere in there.

You trying to dodge that? Think the blog is faking? Want some more proof?

http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/20/wo...al-disability/


Also, please don't feed me the "liberals are not racist and the tea party is" garbage. How about the Black Panthers intimidating voters during the elections? I don't see Obama denouncing them. But I guess they don't count. Meanwhile, you ignore the fact that the Tea Party is, in fact, a DECENTRALIZED ORGANIZATION that, in all practical terms, doesn't have any "high command" to denounce racists with. But please, continue with the mindless smearing. "Many tea partiers are racist" is not factual unless you can actually prove a sizable portion of them are racist. A handful of racists in the group a racist group does not make.

Also, I recall several liberals saying that Bush was like a monkey, but I don't see you denouncing THEM for racism. Actually, come to think of it, I can't even think of liberals attacking their own supporters for racism. Please don't make unfounded statements.

Yes, the "National Socialists" can be inferred by the good ol' "armband" references. A bit like if I said "raise the Hammer and Sickle!" you would presume I was referring to the Soviet Union somehow, rather than the tool and farming equipment.

[tarvu]

You trying to dodge that? Think the blog is faking? Want some more proof?

http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/20/wo...al-disability/


Also, please don't feed me the "liberals are not racist and the tea party is" garbage. How about the Black Panthers intimidating voters during the elections? I don't see Obama denouncing them. But I guess they don't count. Meanwhile, you ignore the fact that the Tea Party is, in fact, a DECENTRALIZED ORGANIZATION that, in all practical terms, doesn't have any "high command" to denounce racists with. But please, continue with the mindless smearing. "Many tea partiers are racist" is not factual unless you can actually prove a sizable portion of them are racist. A handful of racists in the group a racist group does not make.

Also, I recall several liberals saying that Bush was like a monkey, but I don't see you denouncing THEM for racism. Actually, come to think of it, I can't even think of liberals attacking their own supporters for racism. Please don't make unfounded statements.

Yes, the "National Socialists" can be inferred by the good ol' "armband" references. A bit like if I said "raise the Hammer and Sickle!" you would presume I was referring to the Soviet Union somehow, rather than the tool and farming equipment.

That's one person, the same person. Who is clearly crazy and I can see from visiting those links that he does this all over twitter/facebook etc. he is obviously trying to get some attention for himself. He doesn't seem to have a lot of followers, he doesn't have any connection at the democratic party or major activist organizations at all that I can see. Well this person is a Republican party official, she is the chairwoman of the Orange County Republican Central Commitee which is an organizer for election campaigns, and she is an active activist for the tea party. So she is clearly not a nobody like this "wonkette" who has no name, you might as well have just pointed to a random anonymous post on this forum as you evidence to counter my point. They are clearly not the same at all.



I don't see me calling for a high command to denounce them formally either, maybe just one or two republicans who were elected by these people or any conservative figure to actually come out against or even admit the presence of racists when pressured by the media etc, instead of dodging it and claiming it is a manufactured issue. It isn't I get these emails all the time, racism today is a part of the average political discussion in America today more than it has been since the 70's, and this example is from an actual official. It is not a rare phenomena within the Tea Party/conservative extremist movement it is commonplace. I'd go as far as to say that it now appears openly racist people are allowed to express their views in conservative circles with complete impunity.

You can't think of liberals attacking their own people for racism, how about the Bill Cosby incident? How about Juan Williams at NPR over his comments about Muslims? In fact why don't you find me one incident of an actual liberal official tied to any legitimate organization who recently made a controversial/racist remark who didn't face any action as a consequence whatsoever?

Good luck. Yet this is by far not the first time a republican party leader (be they grass roots activists/local party chairmen or elected officials like the lieutenant governors of South Carolina) has made a racist remark with no apparent repercussions at all. It is swept under the rug, and instead of condemnation conservatives get all up in arms at the fact that someone has pointed out the racism instead.

As if racism is not an issue unless people "blow it out of proportion". Well you can exchange racist emails all you want while telling yourself that you aren't racist, that discrimination and racial prejudice are a thing of the past just because maybe black people are no longer made to drink from separate drinking fountains, but when you are confronted with evidence of it by your own party officials any Republican should have to at the very least finally acknowledge that it exists and get over their "I'm a victim of the unwarranted race card" attitude.

If you want people to stop calling conservatives racist, maybe some conservative somewhere should lift a finger to put a stop to it. I don't think you can expect either party to censor random individuals blogs or emails, but at the very least when it is an official tied to your organization or party it is expected that you condemn it lest you look like you have the same views. Though personally I think the blatant racism displayed at conservative conferences, townhall meetings, and other events where prominent republican politicians were present should have been enough to warrant a response to them.

[Snoopy]

That's one person, the same person. Who is clearly crazy and I can see from visiting those links that he does this all over twitter/facebook etc. he is obviously trying to get some attention for himself. He doesn't seem to have a lot of followers, he doesn't have any connection at the democratic party or major activist organizations at all that I can see. Well this person is a Republican party official, she is the chairwoman of the Orange County Republican Central Commitee which is an organizer for election campaigns, and she is an active activist for the tea party. So she is clearly not a nobody like this "wonkette" who has no name, you might as well have just pointed to a random anonymous post on this forum as you evidence to counter my point. They are clearly not the same at all.



I don't see me calling for a high command to denounce them formally either, maybe just one or two republicans who were elected by these people or any conservative figure to actually come out against or even admit the presence of racists when pressured by the media etc, instead of dodging it and claiming it is a manufactured issue. It isn't I get these emails all the time, racism today is a part of the average political discussion in America today more than it has been since the 70's, and this example is from an actual official. It is not a rare phenomena within the Tea Party/conservative extremist movement it is commonplace. I'd go as far as to say that it now appears openly racist people are allowed to express their views in conservative circles with complete impunity.

You can't think of liberals attacking their own people for racism, how about the Bill Cosby incident? How about Juan Williams at NPR over his comments about Muslims? In fact why don't you find me one incident of an actual liberal official tied to any legitimate organization who recently made a controversial/racist remark who didn't face any action as a consequence whatsoever?

Good luck. Yet this is by far not the first time a republican party leader (be they grass roots activists/local party chairmen or elected officials like the lieutenant governors of South Carolina) has made a racist remark with no apparent repercussions at all. It is swept under the rug, and instead of condemnation conservatives get all up in arms at the fact that someone has pointed out the racism instead.

As if racism is not an issue unless people "blow it out of proportion". Well you can exchange racist emails all you want while telling yourself that you aren't racist, that discrimination and racial prejudice are a thing of the past just because maybe black people are no longer made to drink from separate drinking fountains, but when you are confronted with evidence of it by your own party officials any Republican should have to at the very least finally acknowledge that it exists and get over their "I'm a victim of the unwarranted race card" attitude.

If you want people to stop calling conservatives racist, maybe some conservative somewhere should lift a finger to put a stop to it. I don't think you can expect either party to censor random individuals blogs or emails, but at the very least when it is an official tied to your organization or party it is expected that you condemn it lest you look like you have the same views. Though personally I think the blatant racism displayed at conservative conferences, townhall meetings, and other events where prominent republican politicians were present should have been enough to warrant a response to them.

(A) Wonkette is not some anonymous blogger, Wonkette is rather large online magazine, something you would know if you bothered to do research beyond "racist tea partier"

(B) Congratulations, you successfully DODGED my point on those Black Panther thugs at voting stations without any condemnation from, say, Obama, whatsoever. You also DODGED the fact that George Bush had plenty of monkey merchandise and comparisons too, but you sure aren't calling THOSE people racist.

[Nevins]

Snip

So I'll take that as a no, you don't have any hard evidence.

[Matthias]

You won't get honest responses on here, or well thought out ones either. Most of the replies of "here's an example of a liberal doing it" is your standard fair for lack of critical thinking and a clear use of false equivalence.

False equivalence is the main shield of those who want to defend the Tea Party or Republicans as being no more extreme than the left in the US. You already see it several times on here, where you have a Republican official doing this, and they compare it to a random blogger. False equivalence.

The fact that most Republicans in poll after poll claim to be birthers is proof that a significant number of them are racists or bigots of some sort. When 50% of Republican voters don't think Obama was born in the US and a further 25% "aren't sure", despite it being proven over and over and over again, there's a reason for that.

And when a Republican official can circulate racist e-mails without having any immediate consequences, you know how deep the crazy goes. Hell, just look at the Republican Party leadership. It only got that way because the people that vote them in are that way.

The Democratic Party is to the right and is a moderately conservative party. The US is a conservative country. There are many more conservatives than liberals in the US. So they have a much bigger and more powerful extremist base.

[tarvu]

You won't get honest responses on here, or well thought out ones either. Most of the replies of "here's an example of a liberal doing it" is your standard fair for lack of critical thinking and a clear use of false equivalence.

False equivalence is the main shield of those who want to defend the Tea Party or Republicans as being no more extreme than the left in the US. You already see it several times on here, where you have a Republican official doing this, and they compare it to a random blogger. False equivalence.

The fact that most Republicans in poll after poll claim to be birthers is proof that a significant number of them are racists or bigots of some sort. When 50% of Republican voters don't think Obama was born in the US and a further 25% "aren't sure", despite it being proven over and over and over again, there's a reason for that.

And when a Republican official can circulate racist e-mails without having any immediate consequences, you know how deep the crazy goes. Hell, just look at the Republican Party leadership. It only got that way because the people that vote them in are that way.

The Democratic Party is to the right and is a moderately conservative party. The US is a conservative country. There are many more conservatives than liberals in the US. So they have a much bigger and more powerful extremist base.

That's my point that this is happening and it is allowed to be ignored. But you are right look at the responses I get.

Hard evidence? What would be sufficient for you, you can't google or go on youtube and look up the hundreds if not thousands of examples of racism at tea party rallies, by tea party members, do you need me to repost a dozen other racist emails I have gotten so you can write those too off as an insignificant number?

Some of you people live in such deep denial, I doubt there is anything I could do you to put a dent in your assertion that racism is dead. Yet it is beginning more and more to actually drive our policy, and when someone who runs an election campaign committee can get away with it I really don't see how you can any longer deny that it resides and is tolerated in your party.

[Admiral Piett]

You won't get honest responses on here, or well thought out ones either. Most of the replies of "here's an example of a liberal doing it" is your standard fair for lack of critical thinking and a clear use of false equivalence.

False equivalence is the main shield of those who want to defend the Tea Party or Republicans as being no more extreme than the left in the US. You already see it several times on here, where you have a Republican official doing this, and they compare it to a random blogger. False equivalence.

The fact that most Republicans in poll after poll claim to be birthers is proof that a significant number of them are racists or bigots of some sort. When 50% of Republican voters don't think Obama was born in the US and a further 25% "aren't sure", despite it being proven over and over and over again, there's a reason for that.

And when a Republican official can circulate racist e-mails without having any immediate consequences, you know how deep the crazy goes. Hell, just look at the Republican Party leadership. It only got that way because the people that vote them in are that way.

The Democratic Party is to the right and is a moderately conservative party. The US is a conservative country. There are many more conservatives than liberals in the US. So they have a much bigger and more powerful extremist base.

You talk a lot about false equivalency when you yourself commit yourself to it the moment you begin speaking about your GOP brethren. The fact of the matter is, your repetitious use of polls studying birthers is not a significant anaylsis of right-wing radicalism. As we've discussed in PMs, phone polls and discussions about birthers or union members is going to get you nowhere in trying to objectively study the influence of radicals in America. The Democrats aren't right-wing when it comes to American politics, but it is when discussing international politics. Using international political terms in American politics doesn't achieve much and it is still disregarding the libertarian to statist scale of policy. No one will tell you the Tea Party isn't trying to pull the GOP further and further to the right, but just how much racism, birthers, truthers, and just how far right the base is has very little, if any, objective study. Everything at this point is entirely subjective and speculative.

[Menelik_I]

Let's see one is self promotion of a "shock" blog called weasel zippers by a person who seems to have mental/emotional problems of his own, the other is a person who actually belongs to those organizations. Also racist emails are common in tea party/conservative circles whereas I (as a liberal) have never once seen that blog you are referring to.

When an executive at NPR made a remark in private (not in a chain email) that many Tea Party members were racist (factual statement) he was forced to resign over the controversy. When a republican official sends out a racist email (business as usual for conservative "satire") she not only doesn't lose her job, but most conservatives apparently have the option of simply ignoring it.

The real difference though is that liberal politicians allow themselves to be held accountable not only for what they say, but what is said in their name whereas conservatives apparently excuse all evidence of racism in their ranks by pointing out that not everyone is racist. Well if you aren't willing to speak out against racism by your own supporters then I think that says something either about your true feelings on the topic or your personal integrity.

The tea party and republican grassroots efforts are fueled in a significant part by people who are clearly racists, it is obvious they are aware of this but they do nothing to stop it because it works in their favor and riles up their political base.

Also national socialists? I must have missed something in my own post I certainly wasn't eluding to national socialists anywhere in there.

Gold Plated Double standard there : One Tea Party Sympathizer must represent the whole organization, but a leftist is of course a lonely loon ... At least some consistency please

ETA: An NPR executive makes policy ... a staff member makes coffee.

I know that the tea party refuses to admit to racism within the tea party, that's the problem and it is the premise of this entire thread. That isn't evidence that there is no racism in the tea party, it is merely evidence that the tea party is unwilling to address it as an issue because they and many of the politicians they support shelter extremists.

There are generally no Tea Party central registry, it is mostly a free entry group, it is a movement anyone can claim to be part of it.

[tarvu]

Gold Plated Double standard there : One Tea Party Sympathizer must represent the whole organization, but a leftist is of course a lonely loon ... At least some consistency please

ETA: An NPR executive makes policy ... a staff member makes coffee.



There are generally no Tea Party central registry, it is mostly a free entry group, it is a movement anyone can claim to be part of it.

First of all the "leftist" is not an official it is some nobody blogger someone found to manufacture controversy (which was the only way anyone was reading said blog in the first place), the tea party activist was the chairwoman of an election organizing commitee for the Republican Party in Orange County.

Second I didn't say most Tea Party members were racists anywhere in this thread, I said that they refuse to condemn racism. She is a Tea Party activist and this is national news, they could release a statement distancing themselves from her views (as they could have anytime in the past when they have been criticized for their members' racism). She is also an appointed official in the Republican party they could and should force her to resign from that position. Instead from what I have seen they are doing nothing, and will likely continue to do nothing because they refuse to confront the extremist element in their base. According to conservative logic regarding Muslims complacency regarding extremism within your ranks meaning anything less than repeat and fervent condemnation and disownment of a radical minority within a group means that group supports it and deserves our constant suspicion.

[Nevins]

Second I didn't say most Tea Party members were racists anywhere in this thread, I said that they refuse to condemn racism. .

The tea party and republican grassroots efforts are fueled in a significant part by people who are clearly racists, it is obvious they are aware of this but they do nothing to stop it because it works in their favor and riles up their political base.

Liar, Liar, pants on fire.

I'd never thought Teap Party members could afford photoshop...or was it payed by daddy?

What does this even mean?

[Menelik_I]

First of all the "leftist" is not an official it is some nobody blogger someone found to manufacture controversy (which was the only way anyone was reading said blog in the first place), the tea party activist was the chairwoman of an election organizing commitee for the Republican Party in Orange County.

Second I didn't say most Tea Party members were racists anywhere in this thread, I said that they refuse to condemn racism. She is a Tea Party activist and this is national news, they could release a statement distancing themselves from her views (as they could have anytime in the past when they have been criticized for their members' racism). She is also an appointed official in the Republican party they could and should force her to resign from that position. Instead from what I have seen they are doing nothing, and will likely continue to do nothing because they refuse to confront the extremist element in their base. According to conservative logic regarding Muslims complacency regarding extremism within your ranks meaning anything less than repeat and fervent condemnation and disownment of a radical minority within a group means that group supports it and deserves our constant suspicion.

What is the National Central Tea Party organization which ought to force her to resign ?

The fact that it is called Tea Party doesn't mean it is the same thing had the Republican party.

I said that they refuse to condemn racism.

Concrete example of a fairly vetted TP event in which racists were accepted, applauded and shielded please.

ETA:

Of course they conserve Hermain Cain and Allan West has House Uncle Toms to escape suspiscion right ? Do you know that these two are 2 of the most loved TP figures.

[magickyleo101]

Not really seeing the significance, to be honest. I have as much contempt for the tea party as anyone, but just what a single 74 years old staffers does doesn't say anything about an organization. Maybe if this happened more often it would be a different story, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.

[Inkie]

Why are so many threads started nowadays citing a single event and brandishing it as an argument to denounce one group or another? Pathetic