Ambush

[Byg]

Do ambushes count as an attack initiated by the ambushed faction?

[Taiji]

Nope, it's the other way around.

[Byg]

thanks. There are some other army placement situations I don't understand regarding who becomes the attacker.

Any ideas?

If faction A is threatened with excommunication if he attacks enemy B
An A army stands next to an army of ally C
then if B attacks C automatically sucking in army A into the battle
Will this count as an attack for army A and get him excommunicated?

Likewise, if A's ally C attacks B, will A get excommunicated?

For that matter, if A defends vs B (with or without C assisting) and wins, will this lead to excommunication for A?

[rebelyell2006]

Excommunication comes via an attack. If an army is defending, it will not be excommunicated. If that army is besieging a town, and then you get the excommunication message, leave it alone and nothing will happen (if the enemy sallies forth it will not count towards excommunication, if the town surrenders after the end of the siege nothing happens) but it you select or change the besieging army you will get the message.

But when it comes to attacking, if an army or navy is supporting another and you attack, it results in excommunication. For example, from the various campaigns I've played:

Attacking a Byzantine Fleet (As Venice), but the Byzantines are next to a Hungarian navy (Byzantine allies, currently neutral with me but I have a ceasefire-order from the Pope), I attack the Byzantines and the results are war with the Hungarians and excommunication for me.

If my Venetian army is next to a HRE army (my ally), and the HRE army attacks the Hungarian army (neutral but with a cease-fire order from the pope), I will be sucked into battle and get excommunicated unless I hit the withdrawal button (and thus my army does not engage in the battle). This counts for any land engagements, even when the HRE is laying siege to a Hungarian town and my Venetian army is next to the town too, but not laying siege.

If my Venetian army is laying siege to a Hungarian town, and then the Pope gives the ceasefire order, I will be excommunicated if I do any of the following: launch an assault; add or remove units from the army; doing anything really with that army. I will not be excommunicated if I do any of the following: maintain the siege and doing absolutely nothing with the army; while highlighting the army in question, click on an area outside of the settlement, and accepting the "Break the Siege" option when the message pops up.

Excommunication only occurs if your army acts as an aggressor in any territory other than your own. And by aggressor I mean if your army launches an attack. Or takes part in an attack. The only exception is if your army is in a fort in enemy-controlled territory, and I believe you can sally forth without excommunication if the fort is being besieged.

There is one way to get excommunicated without your permission: if your large Venetian army is next to a tiny Hungarian army, but you do not attack. Then a large HRE army arrives and attacks the tiny Hungarian army. If the Hungarian army can withdrawal without actually fighting. But that will count as an aggressive act, since the army was next to the allied attacking army and it would be assumed by everyone involved (the Pope, the Hungarians, the HRE, your commander on the ground) that the Venetians would participate, and thus influence the Hungarians enough to withdrawal. Thus if you have peace with the Hungarians that would automatically result in war, and if there is a ceasefire order you will be excommunicated.

[Byg]

Nice complete answer, though I have a strong feeling I have been excommed for attacking the target in my own territory as I remember feeling it was an unjust decision. Are you certain on this point?

Also in hotseat one does not have the option of not supporting an ally in a battle so I guess those scenarios would lead to excomm too.

[kevindrosario]

I was excommunicated yesterday for attacking the Scottish when they landed an army next to one of my towns in Norway, which was my territory.

[Byg]

Right. The excomm threat is rather harsh. I suppose there is no way to interfere with it due to hardcoding?

[irishron]

I have found out the hard way if the ai decides to put troops in one of my regoins I have to let them attack me first to keep from being excommunicated. the only way I go into a Catholic region with troops is to take it in one turn, no sieges. If the Pope says no more against that faction for x turns, okay, and just use those turns to set up the next one.

[irishron]

And doesn't that type of excommunication strike you as incorrect? I really modded my campaign so that the Pope is not so capricious as to expect defenders from driving away invading soldiers. This is especially an issue since they're not always benignly there, not if devastation is occurring. Playing as the French, they've got the worst of it since they're the crossroads of Western Europe.

It seems like much of that issue could be better handled with travel passage agreements, something that can rarely be negotiated without it being terribly one-sided.

I'd love to hear some better modding of ambushes. I've tried to use them in campaigns, but even when it's smart to hit and run, and I cause a lot of casualties on the opponent's side, it's treated as a loss if I leave the playing field. Do that too often, and your general gets poor traits.

There are mods of which have modified the Papacy and excommunication. Personally, I have not taken the time to find out what's where. Real Life gets in the way. I rarely play as a Catholic faction because of it. I have taken the Papacy out of the game and all Catholic factions' good traits and standing immediately take a 20% that is never recovered because of no College of Cardinals.

I don't even like the definition of "ambush" in the game. I just step on the wrong tile in the fow and it's called an ambush even if it's in the middle of the treeless Russian Steppes.

[rebelyell2006]

I have never experienced an excommunication from attacking within my own territory. I cannot explain why others experience it, beyond good luck on my part.