Several Things

[TheDarkKnight]

1. Love the designs for Men-At-Arms and pretty much all Gondor units. I could totally imagine those designs for being 200+ years after the events of LOTR based on what I have read of the armor descriptions in the book.


2. Am I imagining things, or are the soldiers and armor (particularly the helmets) of the Easterlings based on the Mongols? If so, props to you. If not, still props to you, cause I love it.

3. Rammas Echor...Is that a possible thing to include?

4. When later areas are included in future releases, will there be more AOR units, such as Arnorian men at arms or swordsmen, perhaps Rangers of the North?

5. I have heard of an area that doesn't get much attention called Hildorien, where men first awoke. Possible new faction? Or maybe include them as a sub-faction of Easterlings?

6. Four turns is a year, right? Well sometimes it can take multiple turns to get from, say, Minas Tirith to Andrast...suggesting many months (possibly a year or more) to get between the places. I understand it can't be helped...But for the sake of this great game, I'll just pretend the FATW world is bigger than Middle Earth .

If I think of more, I will ask/post more.

[Aradan]

1. Love the designs for Men-At-Arms and pretty much all Gondor units. I could totally imagine those designs for being 200+ years after the events of LOTR based on what I have read of the armor descriptions in the book.

2. Am I imagining things, or are the soldiers and armor (particularly the helmets) of the Easterlings based on the Mongols? If so, props to you. If not, still props to you, cause I love it.

Easterlings have elements of Asia yes. And so do Variags of course.

3. Rammas Echor...Is that a possible thing to include?

Not possible without changing the scale of the map (which is out of the question unless I want to be brutally murdered by Eorl).

4. When later areas are included in future releases, will there be more AOR units, such as Arnorian men at arms or swordsmen, perhaps Rangers of the North?

Yes, the new areas will feature new AoR units.

5. I have heard of an area that doesn't get much attention called Hildorien, where men first awoke. Possible new faction? Or maybe include them as a sub-faction of Easterlings?

That's outside our map, so I'm afraid there's nothing related to it in the mod.

6. Four turns is a year, right? Well sometimes it can take multiple turns to get from, say, Minas Tirith to Andrast...suggesting many months (possibly a year or more) to get between the places. I understand it can't be helped...But for the sake of this great game, I'll just pretend the FATW world is bigger than Middle Earth .

Actually, 2 turns in a year. And we can't change that without adding a script, which we have decided we won't do, for a number of reasons.

[TheDarkKnight]

Really? 2 turns? Wow I am out of it then. And I figured it would be something that would be tough to change. I just noticed it while playing that in terms of years it takes a long time to reach certain places.

I figured about the Rammas Echor...But thought I would ask anyway.

I can't wait to see the new units...I really do love the designs. On the RTW graphics they are great. I can't imagine what it would look like on later games (which I can't play :-( ). Wish I could play Third Age so I could compare the two, but hell, this game is great.

[TheDarkKnight]

Oh, so I am considering writing a story for a class I am taking based on this game. In terms of the main forces of each faction, what would you say each "unit" or whatever would comprise the backbone of every faction's military.

I know elite units like Men at Arms would not comprise a majority, for example, but what would be the backbone units for each faction?

Also, in terms of the universe you have created, what do you think the total muster of every factions military could be? I just need some ideas.

Thanks.

[Thangaror]

Well, it depends what you regard as "the army". Is it all military force a realm can muster or is it the one, two or three hosts that are actively engaged in war, conquering or defending?
For example, playing Gondor most of my military force consists out of Swordsmen and King's Longbowmen. They, supported by light cavalry and Spearmen, will be the ones who defend my borders and serve as garrison in cities near to my enemies. They'll also be the ones who start some minor invasion (like along Harad's coastline) to distract the enemy. Also depends on the location: against Dunland I won't send King's Spearmen, Swordsmen serve better and even militia will do. Against Harad Spearmen are a must. Longbowmen though will be everywhere!
My military power though usually lies within three main armies, consiting out of MaA and DAMaA, King's Spearmen, GotC, King's Longbowmen, Rangers, King's Horsemen, lead by my best generals.

So, the backbone of all military force would be (respectively are in my games).

RK: Swordsmen (Mariners I'll regard as Swordsmen, too), King's Longbowmen, King's Spearmen
Rohan: Rohan Riders, Rohan Scouts, Axemen, Bowmen, Levies
Harad: Spears of Harad, Harondor Swords, Horsemen of the Harnen
Rhûn: Warband, Axemen
Dunland: Tribal Spearmen, Dunlendish Axemen
Adûnabâr: The fighting Uruk-hai! and Royal Longbowmen

So, my main armies are made up out of many units. I won't list all of them, but only those who make the army powerful. Other units are just 'accessory', meaning they are quite useful but not really necessary (like King's Spearmen and King's Horsemen. Sorry guys), others are there just for flair: AoR units like GotC, Rangers, Dol Amroth units, Lossarnach Axemen.
Also, it is sometimes difficult to say: For Rhûn the 'backbone' are certainly Axemen or Darkhelms later on, but I for one prefer Variags above all else, but this does not really represent the Easterling army.

RK: Men at Arms, King's Longbowmen
Rohan: Riders of the Mark, Riddermark Bowmen
Harad: Harondor Swords, Spears of the Serpent, Scarlet Shields. You might list Mûmakil.
Rhûn: Darkhelms, Great Axes, Variags
Dunland: Pikes, Dunlendish Axemen, Axes of the Wolf
Adûnabâr: Uruk-hai, Cultish Units, Royal Longbowmen

[TheDarkKnight]

Well, it depends what you regard as "the army". Is it all military force a realm can muster or is it the one, two or three hosts that are actively engaged in war, conquering or defending?
For example, playing Gondor most of my military force consists out of Swordsmen and King's Longbowmen. They, supported by light cavalry and Spearmen, will be the ones who defend my borders and serve as garrison in cities near to my enemies. They'll also be the ones who start some minor invasion (like along Harad's coastline) to distract the enemy. Also depends on the location: against Dunland I won't send King's Spearmen, Swordsmen serve better and even militia will do. Against Harad Spearmen are a must. Longbowmen though will be everywhere!
My military power though usually lies within three main armies, consiting out of MaA and DAMaA, King's Spearmen, GotC, King's Longbowmen, Rangers, King's Horsemen, lead by my best generals.

So, the backbone of all military force would be (respectively are in my games).

RK: Swordsmen (Mariners I'll regard as Swordsmen, too), King's Longbowmen, King's Spearmen
Rohan: Rohan Riders, Rohan Scouts, Axemen, Bowmen, Levies
Harad: Spears of Harad, Harondor Swords, Horsemen of the Harnen
Rhûn: Warband, Axemen
Dunland: Tribal Spearmen, Dunlendish Axemen
Adûnabâr: The fighting Uruk-hai! and Royal Longbowmen

So, my main armies are made up out of many units. I won't list all of them, but only those who make the army powerful. Other units are just 'accessory', meaning they are quite useful but not really necessary (like King's Spearmen and King's Horsemen. Sorry guys), others are there just for flair: AoR units like GotC, Rangers, Dol Amroth units, Lossarnach Axemen.
Also, it is sometimes difficult to say: For Rhûn the 'backbone' are certainly Axemen or Darkhelms later on, but I for one prefer Variags above all else, but this does not really represent the Easterling army.

RK: Men at Arms, King's Longbowmen
Rohan: Riders of the Mark, Riddermark Bowmen
Harad: Harondor Swords, Spears of the Serpent, Scarlet Shields. You might list Mûmakil.
Rhûn: Darkhelms, Great Axes, Variags
Dunland: Pikes, Dunlendish Axemen, Axes of the Wolf
Adûnabâr: Uruk-hai, Cultish Units, Royal Longbowmen

Well I meant in the context of the universe of the game, not the game itself. But thank you for your detailed explanation. It helps a lot.

[Thangaror]

Oh, well. It's Tolkien's legandarium, so I suggest you have a look into the books. But actually, Tolkien doesn't tell too much about the military. It is known that archers played a huge role in the númenórean, the gondorian and of course the elven armies. Also the Elves are somewhat famous for their spearmen.
The Dúnedain armies relied on infantry, they didn't bring many horses to Middle-earth, same for the Elves. Rohan of course has her cavalry, and some of the riders were capable of horse-archery; the same is told of the Elves. In general the sword was the prefered melee weapon, though some , like e.g. the Sindar, the Gondorians of Lossarnach and, of course, the Dwarves and seemingly some Easterling tribes used Axes in warfare.
Orcs and the Haradrim wielded scimitars (though Orcs probably used pretty much anything that could hurt a foe. Mosh' da Gitz!). The Haradrim painted there weapons red and wore bronze armour; they were capable horsemen, but no match for Rohan.
Of the Easterlings, nothing is known except that some of them used war wains. I think ol' Palantir (former coder of FATW) once mentioned that for the Easterling slingers there's a source in the books. Didn't find it up to now.

But that's it basically. There's nothing told of "units" or something the like. Most of the units in FATW are made up (though with a basis in the books), with the exception of War Wains, Dol Amroth Men at Arms, Knights of Dol Amroth, Guards of the Citadel, Guards of the King's House, Lossarnach Axemen, Rangers of Ithilien, White Company and Morthond Vale Archers (did I forget any?).

The reference you seek is in "The Peoples of Middle-earth", HoMe 12, Tal-Elmar, endnote 10 - MoN (Palantir)

[Finrod Felagund]

A breakdown of the muster for the defence of Minas Tirith during the War of the Ring is found in Return of the King. I'd assume it's fairly indicitive of what Tolkien imagined the Gondorian army to be comprised of. Numbers are also listed - Rohan fields 6000 spears, which is commented as only half their full muster. The 3000 (this needs checking) at Minas Tirith are only a portion of the Gondorian muster as large elements of their forces are needed in the south to counter the Corsair threat. Aragorn later leads these guys on the Pelennor Fields and bolsters the numbers of the defenders.

Aragorn leads a force of somewhere in the region of 7000 to the Black Gate and he comments that this is smaller than the Gondorian vanguard in its days of greatness.

Tolkien gives huge numberical advantage to the enemy in general - it won't take much research to dig up references. For instance, the Haradrim outnumbered the Eorlingas by more than three to one, and that isn't even considering the Orcs, Variags, Easterlings & other nasty folk along for the rape & pillage.

In the First Age the Elves, with the aid of the Edain, fielded huge armies against Morgoth. No specific numbers, but their lines stretched for potentially hundreds of miles, so I'd imagine somewhere in the hundreds of thousands at the very least. In the Second Age the Last Alliance takes years to muster & make it down to Mordor from Arnor. I'd be thinking that if it took that long to muster, their must be a few hundred thousand of them.

I'm open to correction - as always, I work from a very vague memory. Hope it's been of use though. I'd urge you to do a little research with Google, there's plenty of LotR wiki's out there with heaps of info.

[athanaric]

Of the Easterlings, nothing is known except that some of them used war wains.

In LotR, Easterling foot and horse archers and perhaps some others are mentioned (Frodo "sees" them from Amon Hen).
Also, for Rohirrim, spears are mentioned as being their primary weapon.

Most of the units in FATW are made up (though with a basis in the books), with the exception of War Wains, Dol Amroth Men at Arms, Knights of Dol Amroth, Guards of the Citadel, Guards of the King's House, Lossarnach Axemen, Rangers of Ithilien, White Company and Morthond Vale Archers (did I forget any?).

"Riders of the Mark" (if that's their correct name) are very close to lore, having a spear, a sword, a shield, and a mailshirt and helmet - all explicitly mentioned in LotR as being common with the Rohirrim.

The reference you seek is in "The Peoples of Middle-earth", HoMe 12, Tal-Elmar, endnote 10 - MoN (Palantir)

Last edited by MasterOfNone; Yesterday at 03:19 PM.

Careful guys, there's a ninja around

[Thangaror]

According to Karen Wynn Fonstad calculation in her book "The Atlas of Middle-earth" the forces of the west numbered about 12,000 men during the Battle of Pelennor Fields.
Later when the Captains had set out to challenge Sauron, Minas Tirith was garrisoned by about 4,000 men from the southern fiefs lead by Angbor the Fearless.

@ Finrod, I think I've to disappoint you. The hosts during the First Age were considerably smaller than in later time. Turgon had mustered 10,000 spears during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and this doubled the force of the western army. So overall there were about 25,000 men fielded. Of course no considerable hosts had joined the battle from Nargothrond and Doriath but I guess the maximum force were probably 50,000 men an no more.
The Last Alliance though was the good guys' biggest muster ever. The forces of evil were always greater and I suggest that the númenórean armies a short time before Akallabêth were even bigger.

The reference you seek is in "The Peoples of Middle-earth", HoMe 12, Tal-Elmar, endnote 10 - MoN (Palantir)

Made me laugh. Thanks Pal.

[Finrod Felagund]

@ Finrod, I think I've to disappoint you. The hosts during the First Age were considerably smaller than in later time. Turgon had mustered 10,000 spears during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and this doubled the force of the western army. So overall there were about 25,000 men fielded. Of course no considerable hosts had joined the battle from Nargothrond and Doriath but I guess the maximum force were probably 50,000 men an no more.
The Last Alliance though was the good guys' biggest muster ever. The forces of evil were always greater and I suggest that the númenórean armies a short time before Akallabêth were even bigger.

Good point . I was trying to vaguely remember something about the host at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad being arrayed across the entire length of Ered Wethrin, but I'm probably incorrect.

I do seem to remember though that somewhere it is definitely quoted that the Last Alliance was second only to the invasion force of Ar-Pharazon when he went first to Middle Earth to capture Sauron then later to Aman. Bad move, mortal man vs. Gods

I'm sure Palantir can whip up a reference if it's needed

Incidently (and correct me if this needs shifting to a new thread), I had made a very amateur attempt at a First Age campaign for FATW just over 6 months ago before I went travelling. I've a new computer now & will be back in Oz in a few months, so it's crossed my mind that I may pick it up again. Anyone interested in pitching in if we get permission from the Aradan & the team?

[Flaviafelix]

Even in the first age with the huge armies of Elf-lords and eldar who's eyes shone with the light of Valinor, the whole thing was a long, slow last stand against Morgoth's hordes.

[Stark1]

As mentiones, full muster of Rohan would be somewhere around 12000 riders. As of Gondor, I always imagined them capapable of doubling that number during the War of the Ring. I can't remember how I got that number though.

[Revelo]

As mentiones, full muster of Rohan would be somewhere around 12000 riders. As of Gondor, I always imagined them capapable of doubling that number during the War of the Ring. I can't remember how I got that number though.

Well as we know the army sent to the Black gates was about 10,000 soldiers of Gondor and Rohan, although it included some of the Dunedain from the north too.

[Aradan]

You know, apart from the permission, which you can consider a given, if you can set the basics up, you might get some help from Aradan as well.
Creating a mod for the first (very difficult due to excessive amounts of impossible-to-replicate-on-TW lore) or the second (very difficult due to very little lore) ages has always been on my to-do list (though Kingdoms might be more suitable than BI for a concept I have in mind). I still have the basis of a BI NumenorTW mod somewhere in my archives...

[Revelo]

All things considered, FATW is the continuation of Tolkien's manuscript, we will never know if the cult that sprung up in TNS would have caused civil war in the Reunited Kingdom. so the mod essentially fleshed out that manuscript without contradicting anything in it, we see the characters of Borlas and Barahir and Heurmor as proof of that, plus you have the historical battle on the plains of Gorgoroth with Saelon, who we all know is in the mod.

So you could make it a preque/interquel if thats what you were looking for, showing the cult develop, Saelon's work as an agent of the RK, I always thought that if a story was done I would have Eldarion being assasinated or poisoned by agents of the cult to throw the RK into disarray, so Cermendur inherits what is a wreck of a kingdom, plus we get to see Orthanc fall to Dunland, the Corsair invasion, the Harad uprising. Obviously you would also need to show how magic, Elves and Dwarves have further declined, so more like bare hints of what once was. Not sure if thats what you had planned for writing, but thats something there if you wish to use it.

For the record, the armies fielded in the War of the Ring on both sides were far weaker then the forces of the Last Alliance and Sauron at the end of the second age. I recall that at the height of his power that Sauron was stronger then Morgoth. An example would be at the Battle of the Hornburg, you had an army of 2,000 Rohirrim defending against 10,000 Uruk-hai, Orcs and several hundred more Men of Dunland, plus the 1,000 Rohirric reinforcements led by Gandalf and Erkenbrand

[CountMRVHS]

I call beta-tester on any future projects.

[Finrod Felagund]

You know, apart from the permission, which you can consider a given, if you can set the basics up, you might get some help from Aradan as well.
Creating a mod for the first (very difficult due to excessive amounts of impossible-to-replicate-on-TW lore) or the second (very difficult due to very little lore) ages has always been on my to-do list (though Kingdoms might be more suitable than BI for a concept I have in mind). I still have the basis of a BI NumenorTW mod somewhere in my archives...

PM'ed & many thanks!

[Thangaror]

Good point . I was trying to vaguely remember something about the host at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad being arrayed across the entire length of Ered Wethrin, but I'm probably incorrect.

You're rigth if my memory doesn't cheat me. I'm at my parents' for Easter, so I cannot look it up, but it IS indeed mentioned that after the field was lost and the Eldar retreated, the men of Dor-lómin to cover Turgon's retreat to Gondolin formed a line all the way down from Ered Wethrin to the Fen of Serech. Or sorta like this. The text reads something like "they retreated step by step until they had crossed the river Rivil and then retreated no more". After all those few men were able to prevent that huge host of Morgoth's to brake through the Pass of Sirion. So actually Tolkien somehow contradicts himself.

Incidently (and correct me if this needs shifting to a new thread), I had made a very amateur attempt at a First Age campaign for FATW just over 6 months ago before I went travelling. I've a new computer now & will be back in Oz in a few months, so it's crossed my mind that I may pick it up again. Anyone interested in pitching in if we get permission from the Aradan & the team?

All I could do is to come up with lore stuff, writings and such. My coding abilities are limited to botching around in the EDU and make the game crash.

You know, apart from the permission, which you can consider a given, if you can set the basics up, you might get some help from Aradan as well.
Creating a mod for the first (very difficult due to excessive amounts of impossible-to-replicate-on-TW lore) or the second (very difficult due to very little lore) ages has always been on my to-do list (though Kingdoms might be more suitable than BI for a concept I have in mind). I still have the basis of a BI NumenorTW mod somewhere in my archives...

You're speaking of Wimpy's old Númenor: Total War? I remember some screens and previews and it looked quite promising. Indeed a fully blown modification of First Age or Second Age is really difficult, almost impossible, but something like a small mod focussing on some smaller events could be quite nice.
For example the wars in Arnor between the three Kingdoms and the Witchking.

[Aradan]

There is a submod of TATW "Ruins of Arnor" which deals with exactly that. An interesting campaign, if done properly. And if it's ever finished coughBeorncough.

The problem about a NuTW would be that you'd only really have two factions, with identical units, extremely little building options (Numenor is way too advanced, what new stuff can you actually build), etc.

What I had in mind is a 2nd age TW centred around the early period of dunedanic colonisation of ME. One playable faction (dunedain explorers or whatever), you can start tech at a really low level since ME is undeveloped yet, custom-tailor it to make the player's life... interesting with all sorts of missions and choices etc. But I think it would require scripting to be done properly, as the TW engine on its own isn't built for exactly the kind of mission-driven campaign I have in mind.


And I am really derailing this thread.