I just don't know.

[KayRim]

I would be an atheist under different circumstances. The fact is, something forces me to believe in something bigger than myself; I just don't know what to call it. Religion is so ed up nowadays , I'm suffocating when it comes to belief.

I just don't understand atheists, and I want to understand them. Where they're coming from. It's just, everything is pointing me in the other direction. For instance, you can't quantify art. Where does this need to express ourselves come from? Is there not something more? Something inside us that separates us from apes? We're different from animals. We're singular in that nature. But I don't understand it. And it's killing me. But isn't that the beauty of it. It wouldn't be varying shades of grey if it wasn't so black and white.

I'm just a twenty-something. Yeah, I'm pretty drunk. I've just come off a session of "real talk" with my friends (as if that made it any more 'real'). What do I know.

[basics]

" Something inside us that separates us from apes? "

KayRim,

Never think that it is odd that we choose to be nearer to apes because there are some similarities yet we are closer to some birds but don't want to be as one with them? Why even an atheist knows there is a God, it is just that he or she won't admit it. So why would you want to be like them?

[The Dude]

If you can justify to yourself that there is one single unifying force underlying all of existence and creation, by all means, believe in god.

But I can't.

Why even an atheist knows there is a God, it is just that he or she won't admit it.

This is the "you have the concept of god, where does that come from?" argument. Works both ways. You also have the concept of not-God.

[basics]

" This is the "you have the concept of god, where does that come from?" argument. Works both ways. You also have the concept of not-God. "

The Dude,

It is written, an important beginning because the word is the power of God unto salvation, that fallen man is bound in sin and controlled by Diablos therefore until revelation from God interposes in that scenario, He remains almost completely a mystery. But it is also written that God has kept in fallen man the tiniest vestage of knowledge of Himself plus of course all that we see around us.

Believe you me that at one time my concept of God placed me on the same plain as you because I saw Him as a spaceman of old which is more or less similar to them that see Him in paintings, icons, beads etc. These are the ways of people under sin and it is not until He reveals Jesus Christ to anyone that some semblance of reality can set in.


" and why won't they admit it? It wouldn't be because there is absolutely no information to "know" anything about anything of the sort. "

irelandeb,

Many do admit to the possibility though still claiming there is no God. The reason that so many turn to atheism is because God has never appeared to do anything for them despite their religions which they once had telling them otherwise. Like sulking children not getting what he or she asks for, in their infinite wisdom they cotton on to the likes of Dawkins who produces something else yet still gives them nothing.

But look around you man, see all that God has made and see all that God gives man that man benefits from it and probably much more to come. There isn't a sense that you have been given that cannot be satisfied by what is around you and still you want to believe it never came from God. If you were a regenerate all these things plus much more become the staple diet in every day life and it could well be yours one day if only you would seek the Lord while He may be found.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Many do admit to the possibility though still claiming there is no God.

Yes of course it's possible, but it's stupid to believe there is.

Imagine I had a big box and I asked eveyrone "what's in here?" There could be nothing, or there could be literally anything! Money, a car, molten rock, a dead bird, a stick, water, uranium... In this comparision religion would be a bunch of people deciding, with no evidence at all, that inside my box is a football, because someone wrote a book saying they think it's a football (also with no evidence at all).

The reason that so many turn to atheism is because God has never appeared to do anything for them despite their religions which they once had telling them otherwise. Like sulking children not getting what he or she asks for, in their infinite wisdom they cotton on to the likes of Dawkins who produces something else yet still gives them nothing.

No the reason we don't believe is because there is no evidence at all for anything of the sort. Why don't you believe in the ancient Greek and Roman Gods? Why don't you believe in Islam? or Egyptian religion?

But look around you man, see all that God has mad

What makes you think God has made it? We don't have a ing clue why we exist. You're trying to make up answers, because rather than being brave and acknowledging existence's deepest mysteries, you are a coward and require the fiction that "God wills it". That provides no answers and creates even more questions.

see all that God gives man that man benefits from it and probably much more to come.

Such as? We do not anything about the supernatural, about metaphysics or anything like that.

you want to believe it never came from God.

No, you're completely wrong. There is no human who doesn't want with every fibre of their being some religion to be true. By "religion" I mean a set of answer's to our most important questions, and an objective view of life. The cowardly among us, like you, resort to convenient self-delusion with fictions like Christianity. Anyone sane wants those questions genuinely answered.

[Gordon Freynman]

The reason that so many turn to atheism is because God has never appeared to do anything for them despite their religions which they once had telling them otherwise.

Actually no, most people don't turn atheist for any such reason, they convert because they find they have no need for superstitious iron age beliefs. Stop pretending you know anything about atheism, because you clearly do not.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Why even an atheist knows there is a God, it is just that he or she won't admit it.

and why won't they admit it?

It wouldn't be because there is absolutely no information to "know" anything about anything of the sort.

[Squiggle]

and why won't they admit it?

I dont know, you tell me? Every atheist I've ever met hates or looks down upon religion. I assume they've had poor past experiences or find the notion of moral accountability offensive, I dont know. I'd welcome the day I met an atheist who rejected the necessity of a first cause due to some logical consideration, but that would essentially preclude them from having a brain in the thing between their ing ears. The best I've seen is self righteous intellectual grandstanding about how there is "no" evidence of God, but that would require knock down arguments against all the reasons for God. A thing never before seen in the whole of philosophy! Perhaps Irelandeb your the ing genius who knows conclusively the issue is and have developed an intricate new logical premise that removes the metaphysical necessity, but I find that doubtful.

[The Dude]

I dont know, you tell me? Every atheist I've ever met hates or looks down upon religion.

I'm almost offended at being so easily forgotten!

Besides, most people are atheists because its the easiest to understand position for them. It's that simple. In a world that allows you to shrug in apathy at matters that go beyond one's imminent material experience, mock atheism is the position the majority resort to.

Most of those really couldn't care less about whether or not people believe in god either way, but there's a loudmouthed group of atheists that have constructed for themselves a false sense of superiority.

Obviously that attitude backfires because if anything it strengthens believers in their belief.

[Squiggle]

I'm almost offended at being so easily forgotten!

I realize your views on religion and specifically Christianity have moderated exponentially from years ago, but I'm not going to just write you off. I'm not that easily swayed, sorry.

Besides, most people are atheists because its the easiest to understand position for them. It's that simple. In a world that allows you to shrug in apathy at matters that go beyond one's imminent material experience, mock atheism is the position the majority resort to.

Most of those really couldn't care less about whether or not people believe in god either way, but there's a loudmouthed group of atheists that have constructed for themselves a false sense of superiority.

Obviously that attitude backfires because if anything it strengthens believers in their belief.

I mostly included those types in the 'I dont like moral accountability'. Of course a simple 'nothing' is easier to understand but I dont think a majority of people think about their faith in any substantial way, so understanding isnt an issue. The religious or the irreligious tend to hold onto a few mantra's and maybe a generalized world view and go on like that. A general world view including God IS very easy to understand, all the more so if you are raised with that idea. Actually understanding a religion is difficult, but for the matters of the apathetic I think it really comes down to which world view lets them sleep easier with their own actions.

[(s)AINT]

I dont know, you tell me? Every atheist I've ever met hates or looks down upon religion. I assume they've had poor past experiences or find the notion of moral accountability offensive, I dont know. I'd welcome the day I met an atheist who rejected the necessity of a first cause due to some logical consideration, but that would essentially preclude them from having a brain in the thing between their ing ears. The best I've seen is self righteous intellectual grandstanding about how there is "no" evidence of God, but that would require knock down arguments against all the reasons for God. A thing never before seen in the whole of philosophy! Perhaps Irelandeb your the ing genius who knows conclusively the issue is and have developed an intricate new logical premise that removes the metaphysical necessity, but I find that doubtful.

Every Theist that I ever met either hates or looks down on atheists and nonbelievers. They somehow do not grasp how one can be moral and ethical without the Dear leader.

[Squiggle]

Every Theist that I ever met either hates or looks down on atheists and nonbelievers. They somehow do not grasp how one can be moral and ethical without the Dear leader.

Well maybe you were too busy proclaiming the religious to be one good sleep away from deciding to blow themselves up [ala your comment yesterday] to pay attention to any bloody theists comment. Because I've yet to meet a theist who thinks its impossible to be moral without God. So...bull .

[Cooraan]

Every Theist that I ever met either hates or looks down on atheists and nonbelievers. They somehow do not grasp how one can be moral and ethical without the Dear leader.

Maybe I misunderstood it?

[removeduser_4536284751384]

I dont know, you tell me? Every atheist I've ever met hates or looks down upon religion. I assume they've had poor past experiences or find the notion of moral accountability offensive, I dont know. I'd welcome the day I met an atheist who rejected the necessity of a first cause due to some logical consideration, but that would essentially preclude them from having a brain in the thing between their ing ears. The best I've seen is self righteous intellectual grandstanding about how there is "no" evidence of God, but that would require knock down arguments against all the reasons for God. A thing never before seen in the whole of philosophy! Perhaps Irelandeb your the ing genius who knows conclusively the issue is and have developed an intricate new logical premise that removes the metaphysical necessity, but I find that doubtful.

Here's your argument for God:
"Something must have created the universe"
"The Christian God did it!"

I mean, how the do you have a clue how it happened? See my box simile.

[Hakkapeliitta]

Why even an atheist knows there is a God, it is just that he or she won't admit it. So why would you want to be like them?

Nah, even you know that there is no God and that is why you don't follow Jesus' teachings.

[basics]

" Nah, even you know that there is no God and that is why you don't follow Jesus' teachings. "

Hakkapeliitta,

In what way may I ask?

" Yes of course it's possible, but it's stupid to believe there is. Imagine I had a big box and I asked eveyrone "what's in here?" There could be nothing, or there could be literally anything! Money, a car, molten rock, a dead bird, a stick, water, uranium... In this comparision religion would be a bunch of people deciding, with no evidence at all, that inside my box is a football, because someone wrote a book saying they think it's a football (also with no evidence at all). "

irelandeb,

In your case the box may apply but not in mine because when I heard the Gospel for the first time, the message delivered that day by the Pastor, it was like a personal attack on me, as though someone had told him about me and my past. There was no imagination because this man whom I had never met or known of was telling me about me, and what he was saying in front of the congregation was quite hurtful although they didn't know to whom it was being accepted as this was my first time inside that place.

I already had dreams that played out in me being moved from Livingston to Elgin but only in the sense that I already knew the places I was to live around as though I had been there all my life. And what was more strange was that I never saw into them because my way of life never changed in any way, being that I once more indulged in what was normal to me, I chased more women until again I sought a home in Hopeman or near to it.

I only went in to that church as a dare made by a guy who owned the local garage, and when I heard the above I accused him of telling the Pastor about me which of course he hadn't. So that Sunday night I went back to that church because as someone who likes to get into the fundamentals as my avatar states, I wanted to know more. I wanted to find out how he knew about me. And the more I heard the more it cut into me.

One evening some time later but not that long some of the people I had got to know came with me for a Chinese meal and when they delivered me back to the place I was saying, the garage guy started off without his lights on. I shouted that he had no lights and just after that one of the girls stuck her head out of the window and shouted, " We have the greatest Light in the world." I went straight in and up to my rooms falling on my knees trying to pray when suddenly a tremendous glow or warmth spread up my body.

For the first time in so many years I slept at peace, no pain killers, just rest and it was wonderful. The next day when in work my staff noticed something that I couldn't see or even noticed. I hand't sworn once, I hadn't used the Lord's name in vain and to this day still haven't, although as time has passed and my family are now grown up the odd swearing does occur to get my point across to guys and a gal that themselves are not born again.

It was not long after my conversion that I saw Jesus on the cross in a vision which in those days came thick and fast, something I have shared on these threads. What I want to get across is that by trade I am an electrical engineer, have run factories from sheet metal working, paper conversion, toy wholesaling, jewellery manufacturing and laundries. I am not prone to imagination because machinery does not work that way nor do people get motivated by such.

Look I apologise for taking so long but there has been so much in the happening that it cannot be told in one or two lines and no surprises to say that there has been much more, that I think the moderators would go crazy were I to attempt to put it all down here. I am not the greatest Christian, never implied that, but I do call a spade exactly what it is and so when I say that Jesus Christ saved me not only do I believe it but the others around me do as well and not all of them as said are born again. So, yes, there is very much a God and I have experienced His power.

[Lordinquisitor]

Then become an (theistic) agnostic. Seems like the most logical choice for your dilemma.

/Irelandeb i just love your example with the box.

[Tacitursa]

I would be an atheist under different circumstances. The fact is, something forces me to believe in something bigger than myself; I just don't know what to call it

It's called emotion and wishful thinking.

I just don't understand atheists, and I want to understand them. Where they're coming from. It's just, everything is pointing me in the other direction. For instance, you can't quantify art. Where does this need to express ourselves come from?

There's also a need in people to express anger , hate , destruction , chaos and so on. Take off the rose tinted glasses and atheism will make alot more sense.

[Claudius Gothicus]

The Cartesian argument of God has been largely disproved by now(I mean it's been 400 years) and is quite thrilling to see some people use it as some sort of logically sustained evidence for a greater being.

[(s)AINT]

Maybe you don't get out much. You should come down to the states. I'll take you around. Maybe it'll change your opinion.