[Applicant] Worm,[ Patron] Mega Tortas de Bodemloze

[Obi Wan Asterix]

Are you really saying what Worm has done here is on par with top modders like Halie? Like I said: I judge each case on its merits, and this one doesn't have enough of them, unfortunately. If you don't think that the CdeC lets enough modders in then I suggest you have a look back at the archives for just the past 6 months alone.

I will perhaps I am wrong. I appreciate the the input nevertheless.

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Are you serious? If we are going to judge people like this we could just reward 80% of the registered accounts the citizenship badge.

[Obi Wan Asterix]

Are you serious? If we are going to judge people like this we could just reward 80% of the registered accounts the citizenship badge.

Ok I see we need substance here to pit our subjectivities, please convince me of how mainstream he is in 2-3 examples and I will reciprocate.

Sorry lads... I might have gotten too emotional about this doing my US taxes simultaneously...

Don't categorize me as an annoying old bugger and dismiss me as Curial trash summarily please

[Ishan]

"Worm might have done a good thing or two in the past but he is not doing it now, let him impress us then we will admit him." Pardon?

No pardon me where did you get this idea? Frankly i find it quite insulting.

We don't click the application's thread title with the intention to see whether it will impresses us or not. No Nor do we dig up reasons to vote no.

Our sole intention is always to look for the good side and vote yes if it's possible and in this case right now it isn't.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now i don't get most of the stuff when you say in my old times and things haven't improved, well honestly i don't care what used to happen in the old times and when old members come back and show a flag of revolution etc i find it quite humorous and nothing else.

I have been heavily active on TWC for the past one year and i have seen CdeC perform under the leadership of Empress Meg and not at one moment i felt wow these guys are harsh on applicants. Now either i'm not seeing the obvious else i'm must be a bad apple like them including meg since she allowed such a gross injustice during the time she served as the curator.

Don't know why you would mention Halie here it's like i start posting Tzar's and Y2day's artwork in this thread.
About Halie and Ex-citizens i never bothered to look into what the hell was that about but i do know is that these guys are serious about the past and i respect for whatever reason they stand.

To me ex-citizens are citizens, badge no badge doesn't makes a slightest difference imo, my TWC family tree is:-
Garb > Halie > makanyane > Roman Man > Squid > me, Except Roman Man i know everybody and personally Garb, mak & Squid. Pointless to mention who they are, what they have done and are doing right now for TWC.

You talk about creation of hierarchies i consider it as a family, i trust their judgement and have immense faith in them because i have seen what they do on TWC and have done for me when i needed help on any issue regarding modding\wiki work\or personal advice.

Mak is an ex-citizen whom i highly respect (something earned when we see what he\she is doing in\for the community) and doesn't cares much about curia however if she posts in the curia that she is not happy from my behavior in CdeC then i'll resign at that instant & will never stand for a CdeC election. Some people may think "oh my hierarchy is great and blah blah, TWC is my homeground of e-politics etc" but i can assure you we don't stand nor defend such people.

About over-wielding of bias, Jom & Hesus are the last person i would blame for being biased for anybody & i won't speak for myself you can judge that from my posts. If hesus is biased then why would he vote no for a guy that would be under his hierarchy if he passes?
Sure we have our favorites and support them but neither Jom nor hesus will try to bend the rules just to favor them as firstly they are not like that and secondly we have other Councillors too they will notice such a thing and pin point it out.

Lastly about Worm the applicant in question, nowhere did we say that this guy lacks the ability or commented on anything negative to lower his morale and eroded the citizen class. We only pointed out the fact that right now he is applying his skills in the wrong direction which in our eyes are not enough to vote yes for him right now.

About his capability let me show you a clear proof what this guy is capable of:-
GC #114 [Fixed Stock] ~ Submissions!(Thanks abbs for providing me the link that i asked via PM since i couldn't find it)
He won this competition in which i voted for Louis Lux and talented artists like abbs, xHerzoGx, Marcel, Lux, killerbee & apple participated, they are all citizens. The only contribution that i can see in that thread is the GC management done by abbs. Hell we notice every single factor like during this competition i saw that xHerzoGx notified Lux that his entry was invalid because his entry was a bit big as per the GC rules(dimensions of the pic). So if this was right now xHerzoGx appli then i would've made sure to notfiy my fellow Councillors about his friendly and helpful attitude.

Now as per this should we vote yes for Worm as he won the competition over talented guys that are citizens? no because it's just a competition not a contribution, it proves his graphical skill only. Now check the old applications of these guys. And some more examples of artists that were passed by CdeC by a slam dunk:-

• [Citizen Application] xHerzoGx (Patron: Mega Tortas de Bodemloze) [PASSED]
• [PASSED][Artifex]Rus-Bey (Patron: phoenix[illusion])
• PASSED[Citizen] Fev (patron: abbews)
• PASSED[Citizen]KDK (patron : cederic37)
• PASSED[Artifex] Aanker (patron: abbews)
• PASSED[Applicant:] Finlander [Patron:] MasterBigAb
• [Artifex]cedric37 (Patron: y2day)PASSED
• [PASSED] [Citizen] abbews (Patron: Carl von Döbeln)

After going through these threads you will see on which factors we are saying no right now. None of these artists passed by merely winning competitions.

Now your last point comes that "why the hell do we have such a stubborn measuring scale"? (the harsh part you see in this thread) Well it's not.....

Firstly there is a threshold that gets a yes from CdeC, some of these artists will be way beyond it and some of them just around it, if somebody is even 90% close we would vote yes. Needless to say that this threshold can't defined in words it's a thought that develops from seeing passed cases, one tutorial can weigh out 3 tutorials and so on.

Now we stress this contribution factor because:-
A) We won't let this standard down and disappoint current citizens that gained the badge in this way. By changing the standard on just the basis of skills will actually erode the citizen class and we will in future see arguments between such folks which is something i don't want to see here.

I would rather vote for one person X that has made crappy mods by his own effort then a guy Y with superior skills who hasn't done anything but participate in competitions.

B) More important factor is the things they did to get it, as right now the badge itself acts merely as a driving force so that an applicant contributes for the site in order to get it and it is because of his contributions the guy is respected not for his badge, a thing that people often forget sometimes it's not the rep crowns or his ranks but what he actually does or have done in the past that counts.

Out of 3 threads which thread as a normal member would i be interested in:-

• A thread that contains a mod (has artist's work in it)
• A thread that teaches me something (that is a tutorial)
• A thread containing a bunch of screenshots (POTW)

What brought us on TWC & still does? Mods primarily and nothing else. Tutorials a learning source for those who want to learn 2d art and that may encourage them to work on mods etc. Working in content staff which is responsible for the general awareness on the events going on and site's popularity is also another factor appreciated by a mass.

So after this i will gladly vote for him but right now i can't sorry.

[Obi Wan Asterix]

No pardon me where did you get this idea? Frankly i find it quite insulting.

We don't click the applica

Brilliant.

Well.

I am amazed as to what I am seeing here.

But I for once, shall I said above, rest my case. I think we should abolish the CdC and let any and all of you decide.

I was going to propose a highly capable and intelligent candidate... but he is not bionically engineered I am afraid so I will desist.

[Jom]

Brilliant.

Well.

I am amazed as to what I am seeing here.

But I for once, shall I said above, rest my case. I think we should abolish the CdC and let any and all of you decide.

I was going to propose a highly capable and intelligent candidate... but he is not bionically engineered I am afraid so I will desist.

I'd rather not talk about this here as it's a little insulting to Worm, but do you honestly regard him as the pinnacle of citizenship? If so, it's not us who's insulting the Curia and other citizens by voting no, it's you who's insulting all of the dozens of candidates that have come before him and passed with flying colours because of their qualities.

[Legio]

Alternately, we can cut the histrionics and attend to our CVRIAlly mandated tasks without throwing our toys out of the pram.

I find using Worm as a battleground for our own agendas. This is not about the CdeC. This is not about abolishing the Curia. This is not about abolishing the CdeC.
This is about Worm, a human god damn being who is sitting there in front of his computer screen trying to make TWC a better place.

Now, allow me to quote fully the quote Obi Wan Asterix has showcased as a truly brilliant post. It's only two posts up but I highly doubt that people will read a post that long - especially with such a seminal rebuttal as Asty's.

We don't click the application's thread title with the intention to see whether it will impresses us or not. No Nor do we dig up reasons to vote no.

That is what Ishan said. Not "We do not click the application.". In the event that "Massa Boo Boo"'s misquoting was a rogue mouse click, then I heartily apologize. In any event this had to be cleared up. Back to business.

Let me clear up some things before I go on.

Master Boo Boo, you are of the opinion that Worm should pass and you believe that everyone else is being unreasonable on him. Correct? Correct.

Hesus, you are of the opinion that he is a good artist (even a great artist) but you would like him to contribute towards modding or the Content Art Staff. Correct? Correct.

We are not here to push our agendas by using applications as battlegrounds. We are not here to "expose the CdeC's ineptitude at judging warscape", "expose the CdeC's ineptitude at being fair", "expose the CdeC's ineptitude at being a homosexual trafficking ring", "expose the CdeC as being unfair on prospective citizens", "expose the CdeC as being elitist towards prospective applicants", "expose the CdeC as "Ilumanti"", or anything of the sort.

What we are supposed to be doing is judging the applications of prospective citizens calmly and fairly. There is no set of contributions that each citizen must have in order to pass. There is no set application that one must fill the blanks in for: nor is there a set formula with which one must approach an individual application (I would like to place emphasis on the word individual). We are all individuals as well - individuals who were elected to the Consilium de Civitate by our brothers in the CVRIA. Brothers who have put so much faith in us that they have voted for us in our respective elections. They voted for us because they believed that we would serve the CdeC in an exemplary fashion - something which most of the people sitting on the board have done for several consecutive terms. Come to think of it, really, there is not even a concrete definition of what an individual member of the Consilium de Civitate should bring to the table. Should he be a modder? A debater? A member of content staff? A moderator? A Tribune? A Magistrate? A member of the Hexagon? An artifex? A civitate? A jack-of-all trades citizen? An artist? A local moderator? A paladin with +3 armor determined to make things in the CVRIA right? The list is endless. Would one wish the CVRIA as a whole to vote one CdeC member per allotted slot that they may or may not fit into? A 'Rome: Total War modder with a good enough knowledge of using PhotoShop and GIMP and who can hold his own in a debate' seat, perhaps?

No, we do not. We are elected based on personal belief as to how we will perform in our CVRIAlly mandated seat: a belief which is, of course, based on solid facts which have been obtained by either viewing our conduct in a previous election or some other area of the forum (if we are a first timer).

It is in the same way that we, as individual members of the Consilium de Civitate, judge the application of a prospective citizen. It is not on an established set of guidelines. If he were a modder, I would not say "Oh look, he has only released one map mod. This isn't good enough: we'll need a total conversion and three unit packs at the very least.", now would I? Again, it is based on a personal opinion as to whether or not the user has done enough for the site in order to obtain the nice red username, badge, and custom usertitle associated with the Citizen rank. An opinion which will be formulated with the aid of good research into the applicant and other circumstances.

You, Master Boo Boo, are inclined to vote yes for Worm because you believe that he has, indeed, contributed enough to Total War Center. Given your liberal nature and your other posts around the site, I am inclined to believe that you would vote yes on similar applications.

That's good.

It means we are similar in terms of our definition of "contribution". I've even caught a bit of flak for my views in the past. However, note that this definition, no matter how right we hold it in our hearts to be, is not set in stone and is guaranteed to be different from another's definition of contribution.

As a body comprised of so many different individuals from so many different areas of the site, we are bound to have different opinions. This is what makes the body known as the Consilium de Civitate so beautiful and diverse.

In short, no opinion stated here is wrong. All of them are, however, right, if that makes any sense. If not, then reread the thread and think about it objectively, people of the Curial Commentary.

One final thing (or more, if I write so much that I forget what I was originally on about), though. This infighting is absolutely disgusting. I will restate the fact that cases are not a battleground for our agendas and views on how the CVRIA or CdeC should be run. It is not a way for us to shape an army of Krogan citizens that will do our bidding, either. There is a human at the other side of that computer screen and we should never, EVER, forget that. We should, however, remember it as we post regarding the application. To use an application for politicking is absolutely crude and on the lowest imaginable level.

Just as the CVRIA as a whole voted us as individuals in, the CVRIA voted in our fellow councilors. As such we should afford them just as much respect as we are meant to show to both the CVRIA and to the applicants who offer themselves up for scrutiny. There will be no shouting down or oozing sarcasm directed towards fellow councilors. Such is wildly inappropriate. Unnecessary sarcasm, misquoting, insinuations, mild flaming, and anything that I have forgotten has no place in these halls. We are here to serve and to express our opinions - nothing more, nothing less. Certainly not to one up our councilors or, again, to serve an agenda (whatever that agenda may be or if we don't have an agenda at all, in which case it would be best not to acquire one).

Having gotten that off my back, most of this debate has little to do with Worm and is extremely unfair on him as a candidate. As a Curator's Assistant I can split this off into a new thread for a gentlemanly debate in either the Hookers and Blackjack, the public CdeC forum, or the CVRIA main to allow for a relatively polished thread for Worm once he receives the outcome of his application.

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Hesus, you are of the opinion that he is a good artist (even a great artist) but you would like him to contribute towards modding or the Content Art Staff. Correct? Correct.

I would like to see 3 to 4 extra Graphical tutorials of him or some 2D art work for some mods, loading screen mini mods or any kind of graphical art for mods before he is ready to rise in rank.

For now i will be voting No.

The reason why i said what posted is the following, in the past there has been discussion that the CdeC should at least try to give a more constructive guideline for citizens that fail there application. I posted this 3 to 4 extra tutorials, joining a mod or creating a loading screen mini mod as a suggestion to what he could do to gain citizenship in the future if he would fail this application. He isn't obliged to follow them but if he decides to follow one of the suggested things it would enlarge his chance of rising in colour in the near future.

[Legio]

Worm, please allow me to apologize for any stress that this may cause you when you read it. It isn't your fault: it's ours. Please don't think any less of us for it and understand that we, too, are human beings. If this passes, then allow me to extend my most heartfelt congratulations. I remember watching your screenshots in 2008 and loving them. In the event that this fails, please do not be demoralized and try again in the future. I failed my first application as well. Again, as a member of the Consilium de Civitate, Worm, I am sorry.

[Justinian]

I was really on the fence with this one, and I don't think my response will be able to match any of the above (which is beyond anything I've seen in the CdeC in a long while I have to say). I didn't give his POTW stuff much more than a second glance because I do not consider that to be a legitimate Citizenship contribution; it's a fun activity for the site, definitely, and I'm glad so many people engage in it (few as prolifically as Worm has) but it doesn't jump out at me. It isn't difficult to take screenshots and slap some filters on them in PhotoShop, and I don't intend to belittle it, I'm just being honest.

What is difficult is his graphical work, which I have been gradually more impressed by as the time goes on. I've spent some time in the Graphics Workshop (mostly oohing and aahing at how much better everyone else is at PS than I am), and Worm has definitely improved quite a bit from when he first started out (you can sort of see the evolution, from his RS sigs to his more recent stuff like his current sig). But I rarely consider this alone to be enough for a yes. We have here a productive and pleasant member, and I sort of kept circling back to his attitude, which I think is pretty exemplary. In the end it all added up to a slightly conflicted yes.

That said, I feel like I really have to point out this application was put together in a very haphazard way and quite frankly, as a member of the CdeC, Mega should have known better and put more effort into this. Worm's own paragraph is very brief and barely covers any of his contributions, the screenshots are great but I feel bombarded with irrelevant information.

For example, the artist is ostensibly Worm so it's unnecessary to point that out, the titles don't help me make a decision, and why please god why is there a PBS documentary about the Medicis in the middle of this with absolutely no explanation? Unless Worm was in some way related to this documentary I fail to see what it has to do with anything. The Medicis are interesting, and we really do need to support the great work of the brave people at PBS who labor on in obscurity, but this is the CdeC and I'd hope for applications to make sense and actually shed light on the applicant. This one seems like random jumbled bits of information pasted together.

Sorry to sound so critical.

[Legio]

Worm's work is superb. At the moment the vote is on the fence, but if he channels any of that talent towards a mod it will be an absolute shoe-in.

[Captain Blackadder]

Worms work is fantastic I see it as a contribution so it was a yes from me. As for this other matter it would be best that it is discussed in other places as it has little to no relevance to the discussion at hand which is Worm citizenship material?

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

I wear the Mantle of mandated abstention from these proceedings. excellent work Gentleman/Ladies. Pass or fail, it does not matter for on this day you as a collective have served the client well...

Bravo!!! and stand united against whatever end, whenever the dust settles here in these proceedings...

[Capt. Fozdike]

Nice graphical work. A yes from me.

[MasterBigAb]

Ok I just returned and read through this thread.
I will still take a closer look but I will say what I do think so far atm:

I am not sure whether to give it a yes or not.
I do know parts of his work as I visit the graphical section very often myself and I am impressed by his work!

I do on the one side agree with Ishan's first post, that the application should have been made more carefully but to be honest I do think it is Mega's bad for a greater part. When I do look back at my own application, I made a simmilar mistake, and left out a lot and today I would have voted "no" for my own application and would have said I am on a good way but not yet suitable for Citizenship - but when I remember me writing my application I did not know better and honestly have to say that my patron did not tell me properly how to do it. So I think it should indeed have been written more carefully but it is nothing that carries that much weight (especially since I already stated I consider it as Mega's duty as "patron" to take a closer look etc...)
And due to that the not mentioned contributions which are indeed important for this case should be considered as well, there is no need to make a fuss just because of that...

For the moderation history I agree of course, no problem here. I did not have to do very much with Worm personally, but he does indeed seem to be a freindly and helping member (and long member) of TWC which is a very important condition for becoming Citizen. But on the other side that alone does not justify Citizenship as well, so let's go on and talk about his contributions:

This is a very difficult part which I need to think about further.
On the one side I do kind of agree that competitions are not the contributions which do justify Citizenship, on the other side I think being a member for such long time and kind of like Lewis described it being part of it all the time is some kind of contribution to TWC (however of course not equally to modding contributions etc..) & together with the other contributions it results in Worm leaving a good impression....

I am not for giving the badge out easily nor am I for denying it members who would deserve it. I need to think about it and have a closer look. And at this point I would like to quote Legio "This is about Worm, a human god damn being who is sitting there in front of his computer screen trying to make TWC a better place." "Worm, please allow me to apologize for any stress that this may cause you when you read it. It isn't your fault: it's ours." and would like to entrust some of the CdeC members to remember were they are and to think about what they are saying, or to be more precise HOW they are saying it !!!
Honestly this is no niveau to be proud of, one can keep it neutral, friendly and objective. "As for this other matter it would be best that it is discussed in other places as it has little to no relevance to the discussion at hand which is Worm citizenship material."

[MasterBigAb]

This case is a really hard one. I am thinking the following:

• His friendly attitude (+ may be long membership) - but this is in my eyes not a contribution per se but a condition.
  
• [Tutorial] Light running through text animation - this is a clear "pro".
• [Resource] Wonderful Wormy Renders - this is of course also a pro but it consist of only three renders which are not really that many to be honest.
• My mini map mod - also a contribution, no doubt, but again although it is indeed a very great work it does not look like a major project.
• Worms Workshop - it is nice, I already said I know and I like his art, though again no major contribution per se.
• Worm's superb shots new pic updated 13/4 - indeed again nice work, but what does it really contribute? Of course it does in some way, when one constantly takes part in competitions to keep it "active" but (especially considering the amount of people who do constantly take part in the potw competition) it is nothing that one should count as "true" contribution.

----------------------------------------

When I do look into his posting statistics, "all" i see is that he is posting in the graphical competitions (taking part etc..) and the potw as well as posting in other peoples' workshops and screenshot threads.
This all together leaves the following impression:

He has been member for a long time, and has been taking part in competitions/posting pictures constantly. Besde that - what I cannot count as contribution, he did one tutorial and two smaller projects; end of the list. Hence I cannot confidently justify a "yes" due to it.

He is on a very good way, but I do still miss some other contributions, like 2d art for some mod/s or more tutorials, things like that.

Therefore I have to go with a "no".

[Jom]

So it looks like he's just about made it.

[Hesus de bodemloze]

This member need to get contacted as well to inform him of the outcome.

[Omnipotent-Q]

This member need to get contacted as well to inform him of the outcome.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...73#post9483573

It's done - he was on the money exactly for 60% non-abstaining voters.