Omnipotent and Freewill

[DarkKnight]

I am a Christian, attend church every Sunday, and have for as long as I can remember, but one question I recently thought of involves God's omnipotence and our freewill. It is true that God is all powerful and knowlegeable and it is also true that God gave us ultimate freewill. But if God is all knowlegeable then he would ultimately know which decisions we will make ahead of time. Then our choices are already predestined in a way. If God already know's what choice we will make then our choice is already set and we don't really have the choice to change. Say that you somehow found out God's plan and knew what you would do. You then would have your freewill to make another choice. But then God's plan was wrong, and he really isn't all knowlegeable. Or you wouldn't be able to make a different decision and we wouldnt have freewill. May I ask that no athiest flames are written here saying "its because there is no God". I would like to hear from fellow Christians what they think and how they justify the paradox.

[Spiff]

Im not a Christian, but its still your decisions even if the fact that you make them is set in stone, they are still based on who and what you are, even if the 'choice' is an illusion, i think its quite a convincing one. For all we know perhaps the relative circumstances we were predestined into are fully considered in ways we cant understand when it comes to deciding whether you deserve damnation or not. Who can say.

[imb39]

I am a Christian, attend church every Sunday, and have for as long as I can remember, but one question I recently thought of involves God's omnipotence and our freewill. It is true that God is all powerful and knowlegeable and it is also true that God gave us ultimate freewill. But if God is all knowlegeable then he would ultimately know which decisions we will make ahead of time. Then our choices are already predestined in a way. If God already know's what choice we will make then our choice is already set and we don't really have the choice to change. Say that you somehow found out God's plan and knew what you would do. You then would have your freewill to make another choice. But then God's plan was wrong, and he really isn't all knowlegeable. Or you wouldn't be able to make a different decision and we wouldnt have freewill. May I ask that no athiest flames are written here saying "its because there is no God". I would like to hear from fellow Christians what they think and how they justify the paradox.

That's exactly my thinking. Most people post responsibly. Let's see, shall we!

[Honeohvovohaestse]

I'm also not a Christian, but it seems an apologist, I don't know if your familar with this or not. I'm not trying to flame you, but doesn't it being a paradox tell you something?

Okay from the Christian viewpoint, my christian friends don't seem to try to justify it. They go one way or the other, most saying that it's all freewill god knows the choices we will make and allows us to make them. The minority believe in the predestination.

[DarkKnight]

I'm not trying to flame you, but doesn't it being a paradox tell you something?

Well the definition of paradox according to websters dictionary is

a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true

It may seem contradictory at first glance but it somehow is true. The question I am proposing is, how is it true? And if anyone here can find that explanation.

[Honeohvovohaestse]

Well the definition of paradox according to websters dictionary is

It may seem contradictory at first glance but it somehow is true. The question I am proposing is, how is it true? And if anyone here can find that explanation.

Prehaps meaning it maybe, I honestly don't see how this one could be, and the Christians I know don't either. Most of them try to go solely for free will. May I ask if you're a regular church goer, what denomination, and what, if anything have they done to explain this?

[DarkKnight]

I am a regular church goer, my parents kind of brainwashed me. I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran. I have brought up the issue at my church once, but pretty much all I got was- God is all knowing and we have free will, end of story.

[mongoose]

The answer I get alot is 'God withholds his freewill for us'

Yep, God is doing something like that for us. All the more reason to be going to church.

[Turbo]

I am a Christian, attend church every Sunday, and have for as long as I can remember, but one question I recently thought of involves God's omnipotence and our freewill. It is true that God is all powerful and knowlegeable and it is also true that God gave us ultimate freewill. But if God is all knowlegeable then he would ultimately know which decisions we will make ahead of time. Then our choices are already predestined in a way. If God already know's what choice we will make then our choice is already set and we don't really have the choice to change. Say that you somehow found out God's plan and knew what you would do. You then would have your freewill to make another choice. But then God's plan was wrong, and he really isn't all knowlegeable. Or you wouldn't be able to make a different decision and we wouldnt have freewill. May I ask that no athiest flames are written here saying "its because there is no God". I would like to hear from fellow Christians what they think and how they justify the paradox.

Dark Knight,

Good topic. Your assumptions however are incorrect.

As God is omnipotent, it is true that he sees all. This however is called "foreknowledge" and does not involve predestination. God sees all possible fates however each person has the free will to determine his/her own path. God will see the possible paths (foreknowledge) but the human being determines his own path.

Predestination in Christianity refers to the body of Christians. Christians are predestined to salvation in that belief, worship, and love of God will never change. It is important to make this distinct between the individual decision to become a Christian and the predestination of salvation of the body of Christ (all the worshippers) which is guarranteed through the death and resurrection of Christ.

[Quietus]

I am a Christian, attend church every Sunday, and have for as long as I can remember, but one question I recently thought of involves God's omnipotence and our freewill. It is true that God is all powerful and knowlegeable and it is also true that God gave us ultimate freewill. But if God is all knowlegeable then he would ultimately know which decisions we will make ahead of time. Then our choices are already predestined in a way. If God already know's what choice we will make then our choice is already set and we don't really have the choice to change. Say that you somehow found out God's plan and knew what you would do. You then would have your freewill to make another choice. But then God's plan was wrong, and he really isn't all knowlegeable. Or you wouldn't be able to make a different decision and we wouldnt have freewill.

Your most important actions are not yours in the first place. Are Eating, Breathing, Drinking, Sleeping, Pooping "freewill"?

May I ask that no athiest flames are written here saying "its because there is no God". I would like to hear from fellow Christians what they think and how they justify the paradox.

I'm an Atheist. If you limit the conversation to certain sets of people, you limit your answers verily. Simply, you're only getting one side of the story always.

[LegionnaireX]

I believe that God has a plan for all of us, though it is not set in stone. We can make choices for ourselves but God is our ultimate guide.

Thats my two cents. I don't put alot of time into thinking about this particular issue. I figure that if God had set in stone a plan for my life it's a good one and worth following.

[mongoose]

I believe that God has a plan for all of us, though it is not set in stone. We can make choices for ourselves but God is our ultimate guide.

Thats my two cents. I don't put alot of time into thinking about this particular issue. I figure that if God had set in stone a plan for my life it's a good one and worth following.

I'm not sure I follow you. What about Tookie? God would have to be very cruel to send some one on the path to hell with out giving them any chance of turning their lives around...

[Imperator of Rome]

The freaking guy killed people....,he doesnt deserve redemption imo

[mongoose]

I know, but God sent him on the path...why? A raw, thoughtless display of power?

[Turbo]

I know, but God sent him on the path...why? A raw, thoughtless display of power?

We are not puppets that God controls. We have free will and determine our own path. Tookie took his own path and got the fruits of his labor.

[O'brien the Protector]

The freaking guy killed people....,he doesnt deserve redemption imo

moses killed people ( every tenth jew), the crusaders killed people, they even ate a few (luckly they only ate french people however), mohommed killed alot of people, and they all got redemption.


but to not get offtopic, we have free will as long as we dont know the entity that controls us ( which I dont belive in). If you are being controled without your knoledge fo it, then you are still free to make your own choices ( if you werent making your own choices then you would know your being controlled). Wheater god does or does not control my actions, Ill still act the same way. The actions he has made me do have determined who I am, and I will act the same way in the future. If he didnt make me do anything, then all my actions are a result of the same "I" that will continue making its own choices.

The argument of wheater you ahve free will or not seems curcular to me, and so it depends on what side of the cirlce you grew up on.

[Ummon]

I am a Christian, attend church every Sunday, and have for as long as I can remember, but one question I recently thought of involves God's omnipotence and our freewill. It is true that God is all powerful and knowlegeable and it is also true that God gave us ultimate freewill. But if God is all knowlegeable then he would ultimately know which decisions we will make ahead of time. Then our choices are already predestined in a way. If God already know's what choice we will make then our choice is already set and we don't really have the choice to change. Say that you somehow found out God's plan and knew what you would do. You then would have your freewill to make another choice. But then God's plan was wrong, and he really isn't all knowlegeable. Or you wouldn't be able to make a different decision and we wouldnt have freewill. May I ask that no athiest flames are written here saying "its because there is no God". I would like to hear from fellow Christians what they think and how they justify the paradox.

We are free because we are not as knowledgeable about our destiny as he is. Like in quantum mechanics, the oberver modifies the observed.

God is omniscient and thus he knows beforehand, we aren't and thus, not knowing, we are free.

[Krusoth_the_Plague]

I don't think there's a paradox at all. Even if you view it in such a fashion, knowledge does not equate to a cause. This pre-supposes that our free will isn't truly 'free will.' To me, God gave us free will in the highest sense, and he is certainly capable of doing so.

Your most important actions are not yours in the first place. Are Eating, Breathing, Drinking, Sleeping, Pooping "freewill"?

That doesn't mean anything at all in the context. God did not give us free will to be what we are not. He gave us free will to be within what we are. We cannot become God, we cannot transform into an elk, yet that does not at all mean we do not have free will.

I'm an Atheist. If you limit the conversation to certain sets of people, you limit your answers verily. Simply, you're only getting one side of the story always.

He's not at all undecided on God's existence, so your argument is irrelevant to his contemplation. He's not limiting the answers he is seeking. This topic does not have anything to do with God's existence for him. It's an inter-Christianity debate.

[Ummon]

I don't think there's a paradox at all. Even if you view it in such a fashion, knowledge does not equate to a cause. This pre-supposes that our free will isn't truly 'free will.' To me, God gave us free will in the highest sense, and he is certainly capable of doing so.

That is because you are thinking deterministically. The cause-effect relationship infact, doesn't really exist.

[Krusoth_the_Plague]

That is because you are thinking deterministically. The cause-effect relationship infact, doesn't really exist.

That doesn't detract from what I said. Knowledge of an event (my sister is coming to visit my parents tomorrow morning) does not link cause of the event (I'm not the cause of her coming over by force, persuasion, etc).