Surprisingly good and bad units

[strategos roma]

I would like to clarify something on the Iberi Lancearii. In fact, having conducted an extensive series of one-on-one tests on medium difficulty, I've noticed that they certainly can beat all their most likely enemies, eg. Brihentin or Equites Extraordinarii with ease. Nevertheless, I stand by my previous assertion that they're are surprisingly bad as the much chepaer Curisii can do the above at a much lower cost while Sacred Band Horse is superior to the Lancearii in an one-on-one melee.

[Entropy Judge]

I would like to clarify something on the Iberi Lancearii. In fact, having conducted an extensive series of one-on-one tests on medium difficulty, I've noticed that they certainly can beat all their most likely enemies, eg. Brihentin or Equites Extraordinarii with ease. Nevertheless, I stand by my previous assertion that they're are surprisingly bad as the much chepaer Curisii can do the above at a much lower cost while Sacred Band Horse is superior to the Lancearii in an one-on-one melee.

...
Sacred Band cost 4432 (1108 Upkeep). Lanceari cost 3815 (954 Upkeep). In fact, I think you're making a bit of a mistake - as Carthage, why bother training SBs or Lanceari, when you can just recruit Liby-Phoenecian Cavalry instead? Better than Curisi, and cheaper than both the SBs and Lanceari. In fact, most Super-Heavy Cavalry falls under the "unimpressive" category, since there are cheaper units that do the same job almost as effectively.

Also, I just ran four tests with Curisi vs Brihentin and one of Lanceari vs Brihentin. In the four tests, two as each side, the player-controlled unit won (base unit size is 51). The only battle which was even remotely in doubt left the Victor (Curisi) at 25 remaining (post-healing) vs 7 remaining. The Brihentin didn't go below 45 in either battle, and only lost a couple men in one. In the Lanceari vs Brihentin, however, I took the Brihentin, and I stopped the fight when both sides were exhausted - 37 Brihentin to 39 Lanceari. Imagine what the battle would have been like if the Lanceari had been using their swords and not their spears. So the Lanceari are certainly more effective at counter-cav than Curisi, particularly against units without AP sidearms.

[Boriak]

So in a horse-to-horse melee, should I switch to secondary weapon? Some cavalry has overhand spears which are suppose to be good against other cavalry. Should I use those or secondaries?

[torongill]

So in a horse-to-horse melee, should I switch to secondary weapon? Some cavalry has overhand spears which are suppose to be good against other cavalry. Should I use those or secondaries?

Depends on your secondary. For example Equites have no attribute to their spears. They don't get a bonus fighting cavalry. Their lethality is the same. Now, Extraordinarii, I personally would switch once the melee has started. See, the pike they use has a sixteen-eighteen second delay between attacks. Maybe it's just when it's charging, and then since you can't use the pike, they use the stats of the secondary and the model of the pike, IDK. But I personally would use the secondary, since it's an AP cleaver. For some cavalries, you don't have a choice - campanian cav, lusotanian guards, they have javelins as primary. And it makes sense - you charge with your spear/pike, then you leave it because it's either broken and the point is lodged into somebody's corpse, or it's too long to use in a boot-to-boot melee.

I really wish cavalry were modelled better. Seriously, warhorses are trained killers - they rear, stomp and bite. More people die annually by a kick by a donkey than by shark attacks, did you know that? A donkey can kill a fully grown man. A kick by a 500 kilo warhorse? That would kill a man in armor. A stomp will stave his helmet or plate armor like it's cardboard. And biting isn't fully appreciated either.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

In fact, most Super-Heavy Cavalry falls under the "unimpressive" category, since there are cheaper units that do the same job almost as effectively.

This pretty much sums up my view on suprisingly bad units. Sure most elite units are not really THAT bad, but you can use cheaper/more numerous versions to fulfill the same roles.At times it is not worth the cost...


On the good side? I always will have a spot for those persian archer-spearmen. They do not look like much on first glance. They will most likely get slaughtered the first times you use em and consider em terible. But they can sure be a winning force in eastern campaigns, you can work wonders with those men.
Did I mention that they are dirty cheap and have a huge AOR too?

[Entropy Judge]

Pretty much agree with torongill (except that Equites have .15 Lethality with 8 Attack on their Spears and .13 with 9 Attack for their Swords). I normally switch to the sidearm, since it typically attacks more quickly, although that doesn't always matter - Brihentin vs Lanceari, for example, the Brihentin are probably better off with their Lances than their Swords, since the Lance (AP) is going to be hitting a much lower Defense than the Swords, and will therefore make up for the lowered Attack, although it's a bit of a wash either way.

[Grymloq]

Surprisingly good:
Sphendonetai: they are very cheap and kill almost everybody; they' re also very fast

Greek infantry in general: they have high stamina and morale and are very flexible

Pantadapoi: I thought they were only a cheap and weak militia, but I found them very useful: they are 240 per unit and can be recruited almost everywhere; if supported, they can easily hold the line; very useful in sieges

Suprisingly bad:
Schyted chariots: they are quite expensive and they make more damages going through the enemy units rather than charging them; however they are good against cavalry and I use them in suicide missions to destroy cavalry bodyguards

Elephants: they are a very good unit (well, they're elephants!) but their recruiting and upkeep costs are too high, compared to their actions on the battlefield

[lmt96]

Elephants: they are a very good unit (well, they're elephants!) but their recruiting and upkeep costs are too high, compared to their actions on the battlefield

I conquered the whole Greece with only Pyrrhus, Indian Elephants with a Pantodapoi Phalanx (xcept Demetrius & Pella)

[Grymloq]

I conquered the whole Greece with only Pyrrhus, Indian Elephants with a Pantodapoi Phalanx (xcept Demetrius & Pella)

Well, elephants are great, and I love them , they're just too expensive
(I conquered the whole Egypt using several armies but (only) 2 elephant units. now the have 3 gold things-with-name-unknown-to-me )

[Entropy Judge]

Surprisingly good:
Sphendonetai: they are very cheap and kill almost everybody; they' re also very fast

They're slingers, of course they're good.

Pantadapoi: I thought they were only a cheap and weak militia, but I found them very useful: they are 240 per unit and can be recruited almost everywhere; if supported, they can easily hold the line; very useful in sieges

Are you talking about regular Pantodapoi or Pantodapoi Phalangitai? I'm asking mainly because regular Pantodapoi are actually inferior to Lugoae, the Germanic Levy Spearmen, and Illyrian Levy Spearmen (although that difference is only Mass and better hiding in forests).

Schyted chariots: they are quite expensive and they make more damages going through the enemy units rather than charging them; however they are good against cavalry and I use them in suicide missions to destroy cavalry bodyguards

Chariots were going out of style the century prior to the game's start because they were too expensive and cavalry were better-suited to what chariots had been doing. Even the scythed chariots used by the Persians don't seem to have been too terribly effective, really only being useful for scrambling infantry formations.

(I conquered the whole Egypt using several armies but (only) 2 elephant units. now the have 3 gold things-with-name-unknown-to-me )

Chevrons.

[Grymloq]

Are you talking about regular Pantodapoi or Pantodapoi Phalangitai? I'm asking mainly because regular Pantodapoi are actually inferior to Lugoae, the Germanic Levy Spearmen, and Illyrian Levy Spearmen (although that difference is only Mass and better hiding in forests).

I am talking of the regular Pantodapoi; the Pantodapoi Phalangitai are one of the best EB units I've ever tried (well, I tried only 7 factions and I can't say who is the best between Pantodapoi and Lugoae)

Chevrons.

Thanks

[strategos roma]

Well Pantodopoi Phalangitai is great, no doubt about that
I really hate regular pantodopoi though; they're quite hopeless at battle and they look ugly as well.

[Grymloq]

they're useful in protecting borders settlements against parthians and saka. if you are egypt, well, they're quite useless.

[Remo]

Hey everyone, this was a pretty hot topic on the org forum a few yrs ago and I noticed that there was nth like it over here so I figured I'll restart this useful thread.

My contribution:

Surprisingly good:

Pantodopoi Phalangitai: Surprisingly tough and resilient and able to hold a line against most everyone

All the light Iberian units: Cheap, flexible, good morale and able to stand up against elites

Hoplitai Haploi: Don't underestimate them! In many ways, they might be one of the BEST infantry in game when considering all factors.

Surprisingly Bad:

Iberi Lancearii: They look like Catas but unfortunately they are useless when charging or facing enemy calvary.

Balearic Slingers: I'd expected them to be better than all other slingers but as it turned out their abilites were same as the dirt cheap units other factions get.

I can attest to that. I was surprised they held the line during one of my battles.

[raest]

would the saka Agema Hippeon count? the cost/upkeep difference between it and the saka cataphract is almost negligible, and cata is significantly better in everything and easier and quicker to recruit. it also fails as a medium cav unit since the saka heavies are more than adequate for the job at almost half the price (plus they have more stamina, a better charge, a more lethal ap axe and are disciplined to boot!). not to mention that most (all?) the "noble" missile cav is also better (and quite often cheaper) in pretty much every way (except for having an ap melee weapon, ofcourse). and all these aforementioned units have a much (MUCH) bigger AOR, unlike the agema that can be recruited in the magnificence of 2 provinces on the faaar east. "disappointing" doesn't even begin to describe them so i nominate them for the most useless cav unit in the game (at least relative to the their faction.. i'm sure the KH or the romans would love to have one )

[IGdood]

Surprisingly Bad: Massalitoi Hoplitai - For some reason these guys never get above a 1:1 kill ratio, whether I use them to flank or hold a line. Then again, the only time I've ever used these guys are against the Elite Epeirote Phalanx......

[Stath's]

They do suck against everything. And the sad thing is they really are a beautiful unit.

[Boriak]

Iberian Scutarii. I don't know why these guys always have a very large body count. Almost every other spearmen unit holds better than these guys.

[Perdiccas]

hi

Surprisingly Bad

Agrianian Assault Infantry: I want to love these guys but I just can't. I've been playing Makedonia almost exclusively for 2 years. I use one of these units in every stack. I use them in reserve to hit an enemy in the back when pinned or to rush to a critical point.
They almost always have a lousy kill ratio. I end up with roughly a 1:1 kill/casuality ratio.
I have much better success with Thrakian peltasts.

[Stath's]

hi

Surprisingly Bad

Agrianian Assault Infantry: I want to love these guys but I just can't. I've been playing Makedonia almost exclusively for 2 years. I use one of these units in every stack. I use them in reserve to hit an enemy in the back when pinned or to rush to a critical point.
They almost always have a lousy kill ratio. I end up with roughly a 1:1 kill/casuality ratio.
I have much better success with Thrakian peltasts.

I am really surprised by this. I, too, use 1 unit per stack, hold them back and then I attack either the general or the most dangerous unit from the back. and they do a great job, as i see it. As I remember it, they always neutralise the unit they attack.

So I should treat them like a slightly better version of Lugoae?

Surprisingly Good

Leukanoi Aichemetai - These guys are like peltastai but with spears. They're not as durable but they manage to last through some situations that Akontistai will not survive.

For me, the Massaliotai Hoplitai are only good to fill a gap in a stack or keep unrest low

Leukanoi can be very useful.