Surprisingly good and bad units

[Entropy Judge]

I didn't mean that they were really bad, but for their price you can easily get better and more useful troops. They have limited ammo and inferior melee ability compared to regular calvary so it's hard to see what they are useful for.

Not really. Let's look at the Hellenic Heavy Skirmisher Cavalry vs Camillan Equites, shall we? They have the exact same Defense values (10/3/8), and the same Morale (12). HHSC are Disciplined and Highly Trained; Equites are Impetuous and Trained. Equites are more expensive (3042/761 vs 2409/602). In melee? The Equites can use a Spear (8 Attack, .15 Lethality) or a Sword (9 Attack, .13 Lethality). The HHSC only has a Sword for melee (8 Attack, .11 Lethality, AP). The Tarantines have a smaller shield and moer skill (10/2/9), more Morale (13), and 9 Attack - and cost more - but are otherwise similar to the HHSC. Hippeis have identical Attack to Equites, but 7/2/10 Defenses and are Disciplined/Highly Trained.

In a charge, the Equites/Hippeis are better, but the Skirmishers are at least as dangerous as they are in melee, due to their AP swords. Regular Hippakontistai are probably a bit worse, but they retain the AP sidearm and are ~2/3 the price of a Hippeis, and are still fairly well-protected.

Now, there is something else that needs to be brought up: Cavalry do not, in general, fare well in extended melees with infantry units. They will usually end up dying very quickly. There's also the fact that Jav-Cav are cavalry *skirmishers* - of course they're not supposed to be in the thick of fighting, they're supposed to be flinging pointy death at their foes! Do you send your Peltastai into the fray when they've still got javelins in their pockets? How 'bout them Toxotai Kretikoi - just fire off a couple volleys, then charge into the flank? Of course not - but the fact that they're decently protected and can actually defend themselves with a decent weapon (6/1/10 with a 9 Attack, .13 Lethality Sword) sure helps if you either screwed up or really need some kind of support right now.

Edit: I mentioned them earlier, but never got around to posting them:
Surprisingly Good and Surprisingly Bad Units. There's also this more recent Units You Don't Use thread, which has some discussion on units that are better/worse than you'd expect. Like Numidian Archers.

Edit 2: RE: Celtic Shortswordsmen: The Cladaca are insulted that they were not been mentioned.

[athanaric]

Edit 2: RE: Celtic Shortswordsmen: The Cladaca are insulted that they were not been mentioned.

They're really different as they throw short-range AP darts and not javelins.

[torongill]

Can't really sasy, my EDU is so modified it's basically a whole different game. Cavalry generally tears light missile infantry to pieces, javelins are shorter-ranged, bodyguards are way fewer, but kick more ass, a lot of units can form a shieldwall...

Still, surprisingly good units - Teceitos and Rhaetic axemen. Give them some experience and they will hack their way through camillan hastati and principes(and even triarii in some cases) and emerge on the other side awash in blood and gore and screaming for more.
Surprisingly bad - Galatian shortswordsmen. The description makes them to be some kind of agile band of bastards. The reality is that they suck hind teat.

[Entropy Judge]

Still, surprisingly good units - Teceitos and Rhaetic axemen. Give them some experience and they will hack their way through camillan hastati and principes(and even triarii in some cases) and emerge on the other side awash in blood and gore and screaming for more.

Only really surprising until you remember that the axes they carry are AP - and the Rhaetics carry Pila, not regular Javelins. Teceitos have better defense and Lethality than *Polybian* Hastati, and the Rhaetics have slightly better Armor than them and more men in the unit to boot.

Surprisingly bad - Galatian shortswordsmen. The description makes them to be some kind of agile band of bastards. The reality is that they suck hind teat.

Then again, the description also calls them a "light levy ... young, and fairly unreliable." I don't think I've ever used them against anything besides levy-quality units with anything resembling success, but their large unit size lets them hold off superior units for a while, and possibly do some damage.

[torongill]

Only really surprising until you remember that the axes they carry are AP - and the Rhaetics carry Pila, not regular Javelins. Teceitos have better defense and Lethality than *Polybian* Hastati, and the Rhaetics have slightly better Armor than them and more men in the unit to boot.


Then again, the description also calls them a "light levy ... young, and fairly unreliable." I don't think I've ever used them against anything besides levy-quality units with anything resembling success, but their large unit size lets them hold off superior units for a while, and possibly do some damage.

I shoud've said Camillan and Polybian. And my polybian hastati and principes have ap gladii. The shorter range of javelins means a flatter arc, which on one hand diminishes the casualties from missile fire, but on the other hand makes the shield value even more vital and teceitos have 3 shield, compared to 4 for romani line infantry. The net effect is that teceitos have more or less double casualties from missile exchange compared to polybian hastati and principes.

[athanaric]

Then again, the description also calls them a "light levy ... young, and fairly unreliable." I don't think I've ever used them against anything besides levy-quality units with anything resembling success, but their large unit size lets them hold off superior units for a while, and possibly do some damage.

Attacking levy phalanxes from the back (especially the Panda and Machimoi ones which have low attack and skill on their secondary weapons), ambushes, acting as impromptu skirmishers, killing enemy skirmishers, killing routers, ... there are many uses for shortswordsmen. Just remember that versus heavily armoured infantry, they should only use their missiles and retreat afterwards. And they're absolutely not line units.
I guess many players use ahistorically few spearmen in their armies and thus end up with units such as these in the main battle line, and then complain about their uselessness afterwards...

[Entropy Judge]

Actually, the only game I've used the Galatians in is a Makedone one, where the bulk of my army is pikes (of course) - I've just been spoiled by the excellent Carthaginian/Roman/Sweboz/Celtic sword units, and combined with my poor phalanx-handling capabilities, I'm probably trying to use them for stuff they're unsuited for. They do seem to survive better than my Uazalis, though, which is a bit strange.

[athanaric]

Actually, the only game I've used the Galatians in is a Makedone one, where the bulk of my army is pikes (of course) - I've just been spoiled by the excellent Carthaginian/Roman/Sweboz/Celtic sword units, and combined with my poor phalanx-handling capabilities, I'm probably trying to use them for stuff they're unsuited for.

Well there you go. I often play "Eastern" factions, which have more use for Galatians (especially Pontos for whom the Galatian units are an important tool to counter Seleukid and Ptolemaic phalanx spam).

They do seem to survive better than my Uazalis, though, which is a bit strange.

That is indeed strange. By the way, Uazali would be a candidate for "surprisingly good", being a well-rounded light sword unit.

[invicta]

Well in my experience :
-very disappointed by the different celtic shortswordsmen (they all have the same stats)
-polybian principes are exceptional considering their upkeep. While marian units are disappointing, only thing better than Polyb Principes is the number, something else is even worse. The upkeep cost increased more than the number of
soldier in the unit (so Marian units are much less convenient)
-Peltastai makedonikai: I like them a lot, but considering their cost I expected a bit more (javelin attack )
-heavy lybian spearmen are very good for their cost and is a very solid unit. Will do well in every situation.
-Teceitos are one of my favorite unit. Do well everywhere for a very low cost.
-Balearic slingers. Too few ammo. Hellenic slingers are the best considering their cost

[athanaric]

-very disappointed by the different celtic shortswordsmen (they all have the same stats)

They don't. Bagaudas and Galatikoi Kluddolon have the best stats and are identical.
Kluddacorii have better shields, but are otherwise average.
Kluddobro are the weakest, despite their cool looks.
Oh and technically, Chatti clubmen belong in the same category. They're identical with shortswordsmen except for the club. Which is much more useful.

-Balearic slingers. Too few ammo. Hellenic slingers are the best considering their cost

Hellenic and Eastern Slingers are identical except for name and AoR. It's true though that they are the most cost-efficient slingers if you include all variables (they have the best AoR together with Iaosatae, second best missile range after Rhodians, decent attack, decent ammo and even a small shield).
I'd use Balearic slingers against very heavily armoured units such as phalanxes or heavy cavalry. Preferrably targets that can't shoot back, since Balearic slingers have a crappy defence.

[invicta]

They don't. Bagaudas and Galatikoi Kluddolon have the best stats and are identical.
Kluddacorii have better shields, but are otherwise average.
Kluddobro are the weakest, despite their cool looks.
Oh and technically, Chatti clubmen belong in the same category. They're identical with shortswordsmen except for the club. Which is much more useful.

You're right about the difference between the first 2 you mentioned and the Kluddobro.
Fact is, all of them use a sword with only 0.1 lethality (against the average 0.13 or 0.11 with ap).
And on my campaigns I have only recruited Kluddobro (the weakest) as at least their upkeep cost is very low(169).
The first 2 have an upkeep cost which makes them useless (314) has more powerful units have similar or even lower (see Teceitos) upkeep cost.
Chatti clubmen, have a different weapon (with ap) and are much more powerful.

[Entropy Judge]

-polybian principes are exceptional considering their upkeep. While marian units are disappointing, only thing better than Polyb Principes is the number, something else is even worse. The upkeep cost increased more than the number of soldier in the unit (so Marian units are much less convenient)

Marian units are available to recruit in half of the map. They have better Morale, lower Armour, more men, and the rest (cost aside) is *identical* to P Principes. By the time you *can* recruit Cohors Reformata, you should have no problems fielding them.

Despite what I say about the following, remember that this is supposed to be about "surprisingly" good/bad units, and shortswordsmen are essentially levies. They're essentially the sword version of Lugoae.

You're right about the difference between the first 2 you mentioned and the Kluddobro.
Fact is, all of them use a sword with only 0.1 lethality (against the average 0.13 or 0.11 with ap).

.1 Lethality is normal for Short Swords.

And on my campaigns I have only recruited Kluddobro (the weakest) as at least their upkeep cost is very low(169).

They're also the statistically worst.

The first 2 have an upkeep cost which makes them useless (314) has more powerful units have similar or even lower (see Teceitos) upkeep cost.

Teceitos have smaller unit size, weaker (and shorter-ranged) javelins, and a lower Attack. They are supposed to deal with armoured units, shortswords are light infantry better suited for dealing with skirmishers.

Chatti clubmen, have a different weapon (with ap) and are much more powerful.

Chatti Club Infantry have slightly better:
Defense Skill (11 vs 10)
Morale (10 vs 9)
Mass (1.05 vs 1)
Charge (8 vs 6)
and better Lethality (.14 vs .1)
than <i>Kluddobro</i>, the weakest of the Gallic shortsword units, which they share the price with. They have a lower Attack (8 vs 10). Unless facing armoured units, the shortswords are better.

[invicta]

Marian units are available to recruit in half of the map. They have better Morale, lower Armour, more men, and the rest (cost aside) is *identical* to P Principes. By the time you *can* recruit Cohors Reformata, you should have no problems fielding them.

Basic marian cohort (not the 1st cohort) has less armour. Plus the cost per soldier, is higher than the one of Polybian Principes. I put them in surprisingly bad, because I was expecting that with reform I would have got much better units. While I think and I have found in my campaign Polybian better than Marian ones, particularly considering the cost.

Despite what I say about the following, remember that this is supposed to be about "surprisingly" good/bad units, and shortswordsmen are essentially levies. They're essentially the sword version of Lugoae.

My parameter to judge a unit surprisingly bad or good is the upkeep cost. If I see a unit with a certain upkeep cost I expect this unit to be in par with other units of the same cost, if I judge it worse, i would be negatively surprised. In the other case positively surprised.

.1 Lethality is normal for Short Swords.
They're also the statistically worst.
Teceitos have smaller unit size, weaker (and shorter-ranged) javelins, and a lower Attack. They are supposed to deal with armoured units, shortswords are light infantry better suited for dealing with skirmishers.

I guess we have a different approach here. To be effective anti-skirmisher units they must move fast.
And those units do not move faster than many other infantry units. Also skirmishers with equal upkeep are stronger than these shortswordsmen even in close combat. So i don't really see a use for them that could justify their upkeep.

Also I'm been a bit disappointed by Gallic heavy cavalry. Their defense is only 22, I would have liked at least be 26 like the gallic general units have.

[tls5669]

Well in my experience :
-very disappointed by the different celtic shortswordsmen (they all have the same stats)
-polybian principes are exceptional considering their upkeep. While marian units are disappointing, only thing better than Polyb Principes is the number, something else is even worse. The upkeep cost increased more than the number of
soldier in the unit (so Marian units are much less convenient)
-Peltastai makedonikai: I like them a lot, but considering their cost I expected a bit more (javelin attack )
-heavy lybian spearmen are very good for their cost and is a very solid unit. Will do well in every situation.
-Teceitos are one of my favorite unit. Do well everywhere for a very low cost.
-Balearic slingers. Too few ammo. Hellenic slingers are the best considering their cost

-Peltastai makedonikai: I like them a lot, but considering their cost I expected a bit more (javelin attack )

I agree, if you read the description, you would think they are a super skirmisher, when in fact, they arent.

[Entropy Judge]

I agree, if you read the description, you would think they are a super skirmisher, when in fact, they arent.

Peltastai Makedonikoi? How does this say "super skirmisher"?

Hail, Basileu! These men are the Peltastai and among the elite of your army. Men in their prime and drawn from the upper echelons of society they have been fitted with fine armor, a sword, and javelins. They excel in assault where their javelins can scatter defenders from breaches in defenses made by your siege engines. In the open field, their equipment, lighter in comparison to the heavily armed Hypaspistai, makes them adept at flanking the enemy battle line or exploiting openings made by your other troops.

I mean, there's the one mention of them being "Peltastai," but the rest of it says they're light assault troops, which their stats back up - they're very well-protected, have good attacks, good morale, and are pretty high-mass.

[tls5669]

Peltastai Makedonikoi? How does this say "super skirmisher"?



I mean, there's the one mention of them being "Peltastai," but the rest of it says they're light assault troops, which their stats back up - they're very well-protected, have good attacks, good morale, and are pretty high-mass.

Peltastai Makedonikoi (Hellenistic Elite Infantry)

Hail, Basileu! These men are the Peltastai and among the elite of your army. Men in their prime and drawn from the upper echelons of society they have been fitted with fine armor, a sword, and javelins. They excel in assault where their javelins can scatter defenders from breaches in defenses made by your siege engines. In the open field, their equipment, lighter in comparison to the heavily armed Hypaspistai, makes them adept at flanking the enemy battle line or exploiting openings made by your other troops.

Historically the elite Peltastai Makedonikoi appear at some point during the late 3rd century as the guard of the Antigonid kings and later with the other Diadochoi. The precise moment is not known due to scarcity of information concerning period between the Battle of Ipsos and start of second Punic War. It is from both Polybios and inscriptions found in Makedonia that we learn of them; that they were among the most fit Makedones available to the king; and likely the sons of noble families. They were younger than 35 and so at the peak physical strength for the average man. Their role in war was similar to that of Hypaspistai in the army of Alexander the Great: assault of fortifications, supporting light troops in broken terrain, and performing special missions that required both skill and strength. In set battles they could be equipped with sarissai and fight with the phalanx positioned in the place of honor at the right wing close to the king. Commanders of the Peltastai were among the most important persons in kingdom, as evidenced by Antigonos Doson's naming the contemporary commander of the unit, along with four others, as protector of a young Phillipos V. .






Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers)

The Peltastai is a type of elite skirmisher that sacrifices heavy arms and armor for mobility and range. They are armored in linen and carry a medium sized ovular shield. Originally, they carried a crescent shaped 'pelta' shield, originated in Thrake and gave the peltastai their name, but this was phased out in the fourth century. Their armaments consist of several javelins and a sword. This panoply makes them light and mobile, but still able to engage in melee after their javelins have been thrown. They are a versatile unit but one must remember that their primary arms are javelins, and they are not equipped to stand toe to toe with heavier infantry. Their role is one of speed, harassment, and critical flanking maneuvers.

Historically, the peltastai were often hoplitai or pezhetairoi equipped to fight in the manner of a skirmisher. This meant that they were adept melee combatants as well as being deadly with their javelins. Peltastai were used to great effect on ancient battlefields but by 270 BC the thureophoros was becoming the dominant melee skirmisher and the peltastai were carrying more javelins and were used in a manner that was consistent with this. This was simply a matter of specialization, and it did not mean that peltastai would be any less effective if deployed correctly. Their light armament makes them extremely fast, but tends to be to their detriment in melee combat. They were mostly used in the role of supporting missile troops who charged in at the last moment, after they had spent all their javelins. The great Athenian general Iphikrates is credited with the invention of the peltast as a distinct unit, and it is he that first employed them in this manner to great effect against the heavier armored and better trained hoplitai of Sparte.



Sounds just like a super or heavy skirmisher to me, with added roles. But they are not skirmishers, theyre just like the other "throw missile weapon before charging" heavy infantry. They would be more like the third evolution of the Thorakitai.

[Entropy Judge]

Hail, Basileu! These men are the Peltastai and among the elite of your army. Men in their prime and drawn from the upper echelons of society they have been fitted with fine armor, a sword, and javelins. They excel in assault where their javelins can scatter defenders from breaches in defenses made by your siege engines. In the open field, their equipment, lighter in comparison to the heavily armed Hypaspistai, makes them adept at flanking the enemy battle line or exploiting openings made by your other troops.

Well, you get points for being able to look things up, and lose them for reposting exactly what I did. Well, let me clarify:
1) I did say that it mentioned them being Peltastai.
2) Virtually all the Celtic sword units carry Javelins - are they skirmishers?
3) "The excel in assault ..." is not what skirmishers do.
4) "adept at flanking the enemy" sounds like what Light Infantry do. While some Light Infantry can function as skirmishers, and some heavy skirmishers are useful as Light Infantry, they are different types of units.

Historically the elite Peltastai Makedonikoi appear at some point during the late 3rd century as the guard of the Antigonid kings and later with the other Diadochoi. The precise moment is not known due to scarcity of information concerning period between the Battle of Ipsos and start of second Punic War. It is from both Polybios and inscriptions found in Makedonia that we learn of them; that they were among the most fit Makedones available to the king; and likely the sons of noble families. They were younger than 35 and so at the peak physical strength for the average man. Their role in war was similar to that of Hypaspistai in the army of Alexander the Great: assault of fortifications, supporting light troops in broken terrain, and performing special missions that required both skill and strength. In set battles they could be equipped with sarissai and fight with the phalanx positioned in the place of honor at the right wing close to the king. Commanders of the Peltastai were among the most important persons in kingdom, as evidenced by Antigonos Doson's naming the contemporary commander of the unit, along with four others, as protector of a young Phillipos V.

Hmm ... "supporting light troops," huh? So they aren't Light Infantry themselves, and instead function as heavy backup for them? That really, really does not sound like skirmisher duty - Light Infantry serve as backup for Skirmishers, after all, so what backs up the Light Infantry? Either better Light Infantry or elite Heavy Infantry.

The Peltastai is a type of elite skirmisher that sacrifices heavy arms and armor for mobility and range. They are armored in linen and carry a medium sized ovular shield. Originally, they carried a crescent shaped 'pelta' shield, originated in Thrake and gave the peltastai their name, but this was phased out in the fourth century. Their armaments consist of several javelins and a sword. This panoply makes them light and mobile, but still able to engage in melee after their javelins have been thrown. They are a versatile unit but one must remember that their primary arms are javelins, and they are not equipped to stand toe to toe with heavier infantry. Their role is one of speed, harassment, and critical flanking maneuvers.

Ah, so the crux of your argument is that the Skirmisher/Light Infantry unit "Peltast" is an elite, heavy skirmisher that can engage in melee and make flanking maneuvers, so the Peltastai Makedonikoi must also be an Elite Skirmisher? Well, I suppose you can be forgiven for not realizing that assault duties and skirmisher duties are rather on the opposite ends of the infantry role spectrum, as it is a rather difficult thing to understand. But let's look at some quotes, hm?

"They excel in assault where their javelins can scatter defenders from breaches in defenses made by your siege engines. In the open field, their equipment, lighter in comparison to the heavily armed Hypaspistai, makes them adept at flanking the enemy battle line or exploiting openings made by your other troops."

This describes an assault unit that is faster and lighter than another assault unit, which would make it a fire-team kind of unit - something like an ancient Special Forces, if you will. First in, fast-moving, able to do quite a lot of damage. Note that it says the Javelins can be used to "scatter the defenders."

"They are a versatile unit but one must remember that their primary arms are javelins, and they are not equipped to stand toe to toe with heavier infantry. Their role is one of speed, harassment, and critical flanking manoeuvres."

This describes a skirmishing unit that has some melee ability, but is not designed for any sort of line action. Note that it says the Javelins are the primary weapon, not the sword.

Sounds just like a super or heavy skirmisher to me, with added roles. But they are not skirmishers, theyre just like the other "throw missile weapon before charging" heavy infantry. They would be more like the third evolution of the Thorakitai.

And I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. The description given makes them sound like Assault Infantry, not Skirmishers, the game calls them "Elite Infantry" instead of "Skirmishers," and a casual glance at the stats would back up their heavy nature - they've got high Attack and Defense stats, which most Skirmishers do not, and they have low numbers compared to Skirmisher units.

[Entropy Judge]

But they are a Celtic shortsword unit - literally the only difference between them and the Bagaudas is that dart and an extra point of Armour for the Cladaca.

[Trax]

Their sidearm is completely different. Not that the AI ever uses it though...

I think I've only seen it once, in vanilla BI.

Is it any different in Medieval?

[athanaric]

I think I've only seen it once, in vanilla BI.

Is it any different in Medieval?

In M2TW cavalry drop their lances after the charge and switch to sidearms automatically (assuming they got any), which is a huge improvement. In RTW, AI cavalry only uses their secondary weapon upon being charged by another unit, like for example other cavalry or elephants.

I will admit I don't recall losing Teceitos, but I tend to play as the Casse when I play Celts - although I could easily be wrong remembering the Casse keeping them, as it's been a while since I've played.

Casse keep their Teceitos, Aedui and Arverni don't.