Surprisingly good and bad units

[strategos roma]

Hey everyone, this was a pretty hot topic on the org forum a few yrs ago and I noticed that there was nth like it over here so I figured I'll restart this useful thread.

My contribution:

Surprisingly good:

Pantodopoi Phalangitai: Surprisingly tough and resilient and able to hold a line against most everyone

All the light Iberian units: Cheap, flexible, good morale and able to stand up against elites

Hoplitai Haploi: Don't underestimate them! In many ways, they might be one of the BEST infantry in game when considering all factors.

Surprisingly Bad:

Iberi Lancearii: They look like Catas but unfortunately they are useless when charging or facing enemy calvary.

Balearic Slingers: I'd expected them to be better than all other slingers but as it turned out their abilites were same as the dirt cheap units other factions get.

[Perdikkas]

agreed about the balearic slingers.... i always hired them like crazy. took me months of playing to realize they don't dominate like i thought they did historically.

hellenic slingers almost (just as) good.
rhodian slingers outclass them by far.

[Entropy Judge]

Yeah, there were several topics here a while ago.

Surprisingly Bad:

Iberi Lancearii: They look like Catas but unfortunately they are useless when charging or facing enemy calvary.

Then frankly you're using them wrong. They're the best Western Heavy Charge Cavalry; they have somewhat lower Lethality (it's only .33, instead of the .38 of Equites Extraordinarii or the .4 of the best Eastern units), but it's still AP, still an extremely powerful Charge bonus, their sidearm is AP, and they're extremely tough.

The only problems I've encountered with them is that they're frankly unnecessary much of the time - cheaper cavalry gets the job done just as well in most cases, and they frequently have better stamina to boot.

Balearic Slingers: I'd expected them to be better than all other slingers but as it turned out their abilites were same as the dirt cheap units other factions get.

Balearics have a base Missile attack of 3 (everyone else has 1 or 2), the best morale of all the Slingers, a great sidearm, are Very Hardy, and can Hide in Long Grass. They are also only about twice as expensive as other Slingers.

[Perdikkas]

Yeah, there were several topics here a while ago.


Then frankly you're using them wrong. They're the best Western Heavy Charge Cavalry; they have somewhat lower Lethality (it's only .33, instead of the .38 of Equites Extraordinarii or the .4 of the best Eastern units), but it's still AP, still an extremely powerful Charge bonus, their sidearm is AP, and they're extremely tough.

The only problems I've encountered with them is that they're frankly unnecessary much of the time - cheaper cavalry gets the job done just as well in most cases, and they frequently have better stamina to boot.


Balearics have a base Missile attack of 3 (everyone else has 1 or 2), the best morale of all the Slingers, a great sidearm, are Very Hardy, and can Hide in Long Grass. They are also only about twice as expensive as other Slingers.

didn't realize the base missle attack issue. i was just looking at range.
i didn't think the morale was such a big issue, because hopefully, the slingers are kept out of melee as much as possible. i try to have them retire from the field after stones expended or retreat them behind the lines when the enemy closes.

[Entropy Judge]

i didn't think the morale was such a big issue, because hopefully, the slingers are kept out of melee as much as possible. i try to have them retire from the field after stones expended or retreat them behind the lines when the enemy closes.

True, slingers in melee is not usually a good thing. Iosatae are the only ones I would consistently use in melee, and that's *only* because they're so easy to recruit, although they're not too bad at it (8 Attack, .1 Lethality Sword, 1/2/7 Defense). The thing with the Balearics and Rhodians, though, is that while the Rhodians have the best protection (which is excellent for missile dueling), they're stuck with the lousy 9 Attack, .04 Lethality Knife, while the Balearics, despite being not as well-protected, have as 8 Attack, .11 Lethality, AP Sword. So while the Balearic Slingers (like all Slingers) should not be subjected to melee, if they do get dragged in, they're very likely to get some kills in.

[athanaric]

Pantodopoi Phalangitai: Surprisingly tough and resilient and able to hold a line against most everyone

They are surprisingly good, especially with their secondary, AP sidearm, but then again they are phalanx pikemen, meaning their unit category is the strongest cateory in frontal combat anyway. They are very vulnerable to flank attacks though, and downright horrible on walls (due to their low attack and pitiful defence skill).

All the light Iberian units: Cheap, flexible, good morale and able to stand up against elites

And unable to stand up to medium units, e.g. swordsmen with low armour and high lethality.


Surprisingly good: Harmata Drepanephora. I've recently had a battle where one unit of 40 chariots scored 1121 kills, and a second one where another unit of these chariots scored 1120. And that's with the weaker Pontic version.

Many people cannot use them properly. Here's their three main uses:
1) stay behind your lines, but close enough to frighten enemy units. Be careful not to attract fire arrows or other missiles. Otherwise your chariots will kill your own army.
2) seek out and destroy cavalry. One unit of Scythed Chariots can destroy two units of light cavalry in about half a minute. The important thing to remember is to keep moving.
3) run down routing or wavering units (pick the ones that are "shaken" or just fleeing). Chariots are supreme for this task and can take down routers faster than any other unit.

[Saint_of_Battle]

Suprisingly good: Celtic Slingers and Hoplitai Aploi (also Belgae Spearmen and Gaelaiche)
Suprisingly bad: Celtic Levy Spearmen

[LongTom]

Suprisingly good:
Drapanai.
If you consinder the fact that they only protection is their cap and trousers they cope with other melee infantry pretty good(excellent if they flank).Of course even greek archers kill dozens in a single volley.

Numidian Cavalry
I love these guys.Althought they don't have armor and armed with a pointy sticks they fare more than good in a charge,they are pretty good against other light-medium cavalry too.

Suprisingly Bad:
Iberian Lancearii
Very expensive and pretty much redundant.The medium iberian cavalry fills the role of heavy calvarly pretty good.

Pontikoi Thorakitai
Expensive with nothing to justify their excistance in an army.
Maybe its my playstyle but I really never found a trait that would made them usefull(when you have galatian and greek units available).

[mudang]

Suprisingly good:
Drapanai.
If you consinder the fact that they only protection is their cap and trousers they cope with other melee infantry pretty good(excellent if they flank).Of course even greek archers kill dozens in a single volley.

Just about to post the same thing actually .. for the price, ~800 recruit/200 upkeep, they're the best value assault infantry in the game. 0.225 lethality, excellent morale (like all Getai troops to be fair), and pretty good combat values.

I've done multiple tests against various units one-on-one and they can beat or severely maul any melee unit that doesn't have missile secondary attacks (which decimates them). Except for Gaestatae of course , but even then they do plenty of damage.

As long as you can avoid missile fire (ambushing helps) then they're well worth it.

Another Suprisingly good unit is Thracian skirmishers .. they have an AP 0.225 lethality sword IIRC so they're very useful for charging the rear of the enemy line once their javelins are exhausted (which happens far too quickly with javelineers unfortunately).

Susprisingly bad: Getai archers

If you read the unit descriptions across the various units it gives the feeling that archery was a pretty strong part of Getai warfare, especially since they had to fight the Scythians, but when you look at their stats they're severely outranged by pretty much any archer unit except those from societies that weren't good at archery at all (eg. greeks).

The second-level archers are more worthwhile and come with a good sword so they can play the part of light infantry, but they're far too expensive if you're looking at them as primarily missile troops.

Recruiting Scythian archers from the coastal homeland city is far better overall since they have the second best range of any archer unit (the best being Cretans).

[Entropy Judge]

I've done multiple tests against various units one-on-one and they can beat or severely maul any melee unit that doesn't have missile secondary attacks (which decimates them). Except for Gaestatae of course , but even then they do plenty of damage.

Just a couple clarifications:
1) Melee infantry with javelins/pila have their melee weapon as the secondary - missile attacks are always primary attacks.
2) Gaesatae do have javelins.

Recruiting Scythian archers from the coastal homeland city is far better overall since they have the second best range of any archer unit (the best being Cretans).

Saka Foot Archers outrange Cretans 209 to 201.6, and quite a few of the good archers have ~190, so the 198 range of the Scythian Foot - especially with their low Armor - means they're not so useful as their range might suggest. Also, Horse Archers do have comparable ranges: Saka Riders and Yuezhi Horse Archers have 198, Early Yuezhi Noble Cavalry, Early Saka Nobles, and Saka Armoured Nobles have 201.6, and 187 and 190 are fairly common for the good HAs.

[Ferdiad]

Suprisingly good: Celtic Slingers and Hoplitai Aploi (also Belgae Spearmen and Gaelaiche)
Suprisingly bad: Celtic Levy Spearmen

Dude...theyre meant to be it's in the name and in their description, this is about "Surprisingly Bad"
Pinkened to highlight the issue.

[Saint_of_Battle]

Dude...theyre meant to be it's in the name and in their description, this is about "Surprisingly Bad"
Pinkened to highlight the issue.

Weeeeell.... Those spearmen are definetely not good, but I had no idea that they would suck so bad

[athanaric]

Suprisingly bad: Celtic Levy Spearmen

They do beat Lusotannan bodyguards one on one though

Suprisingly Bad:
Iberian Lancearii
Very expensive and pretty much redundant.The medium iberian cavalry fills the role of heavy calvarly pretty good.

You should field them for the bling factor. With Iberian elites, it's all about the bling.

Pontikoi Thorakitai
Expensive with nothing to justify their excistance in an army.

They're somewhat underpowered. You won't cheat if you increase their sword lethality to 0.13. Same for the Armenian counterpart (Srakir Martikner). Oh and BTW add +2 defence skill to the Bruttian Infantry, while you're at it. In fact, something like this has been already suggested by a stat guy of EB I.

[LongTom]

They do beat Lusotannan bodyguards one on one though

Yes they are actually very good for the prise(not Hoplitai aploi good but well above average).

You should field them for the bling factor. With Iberian elites, it's all about the bling.

Bling?

They're somewhat underpowered. You won't cheat if you increase their sword lethality to 0.13. Same for the Armenian counterpart (Srakir Martikner). Oh and BTW add +2 defence skill to the Bruttian Infantry, while you're at it. In fact, something like this has been already suggested by a stat guy of EB I.

I'll try it,
although it might take a while because I don't know how to mod

[jirisys]

Suprisingly good: Akontistai/Peltastai.

They have many times brought down macedonian kings with those small knives.

Suprisingly bad: Hippeis

Not worth the barrack's price. They can barely kill routers and light cav. But they die like flies.

~Jirisys ()

[athanaric]

Bling?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlingOfWar

I'll try it,
although it might take a while because I don't know how to mod

There should be a txt file in the Rome Total War\Europa Barbarorum\sp game edu backup folder called "export_descr_unit". Make a copy of the file and store it somewhere else (just in case you screw up), then look into the original one and search for the aforementioned units.

for example, this is the part about the Armenian swordsmen:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;383
type             eastern infantry mardig swordsmen
dictionary       eastern_infantry_mardig_swordsmen      ; Mardig Sooseramartik
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          eastern_infantry_mardig_georgian_swordsmen_pontic_thorakitai_parthohellenikoi_thureophoroi, 40, 0, 1.15
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation        1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 6, javelin, 47.3, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         12, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  9, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental      13, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1897, 474, 196, 374, 1897
ownership        romans_scipii, slave

The boldened red part indicates the lethality of the melee weapon.

Likewise for the Pontic unit:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;504
type             eastern infantry pontic thorakitai
dictionary       eastern_infantry_pontic_thorakitai      ; Pontic Thorakitai
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          eastern_infantry_mardig_georgian_swordsmen_pontic_thorakitai_parthohellenikoi_thureophoroi, 40, 0, 1.15
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 4, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         12, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  9, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental      13, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1813, 453, 196, 374, 1813
ownership        carthage

The Bruttian infantry is to be found here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;533
type             italic infantry bruttian
dictionary       italic_infantry_bruttian      ; Bruttian Infantry
category         infantry
class            light
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          roman_infantry_hastatiearly, 40, 0, 1.18
mount_effect      chariot +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, mercenary_unit
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         10, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  8, 7, 4, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental      11, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1487, 372, 50, 70, 1487
ownership        seleucid, slave, gauls, scythia, britons, germans, spain, dacia, greek_cities, thrace, macedon, egypt, numidia, romans_julii, romans_scipii, romans_brutii, carthage, armenia, parthia, pontus, saba

Note the inferior def skill which should be changed to 9.

Sure, there's plenty of archer units with range over 190 .. but that's exactly what makes the Getai archers so "suprisingly bad", they either get outranged by ~50 for the standard unit or they cost a lot more for the elite archers. Hence for Getai players the scythian archers are the best value option because at least you're not being horribly outgunned for range and quiver size.

They're surprisingly good considering that they are part of a group of "Barbarian archer" types, who're equipped with a spear as a backup. The Getai archers are much better than for example the Celtic ones.

Suprisingly good: Akontistai/Peltastai.

They have many times brought down macedonian kings with those small knives.

Peltastai don't have knives. They have swords with the same lethality as those of Roman legionaries.

Apart from hippeis, all those greek skirmisher calvary, even the elite ones are basically crap.
I rarely use this type of unit but when i do the numidians r definitely my first choice.

Because you're using them wrong...

[Entropy Judge]

What did you use them against (and was the Battle Difficulty Medium)? Because while Lugoae are not good units, they are about as good as Rorarii (minus the javelins), which hold a line pretty well.

[strategos roma]

Apart from hippeis, all those greek skirmisher calvary, even the elite ones are basically crap.
I rarely use this type of unit but when i do the numidians r definitely my first choice.

[Jaertecken]

Apart from hippeis, all those greek skirmisher calvary, even the elite ones are basically crap.
I rarely use this type of unit but when i do the numidians r definitely my first choice.

I beg to differ, both the Hippakontistai, Hetairo Aspidophoroi and not to mention the Hippeis Tarantinoi are excellent skirmisher cavalry with their armour piercing secondary attacks. I can't mention all the times I have had one of hippakontistai luring away a mounted enemy general from the army, pelted him with javelins and when he's exhausted charged with drawn blades and cut him down!

[strategos roma]

I beg to differ, both the Hippakontistai, Hetairo Aspidophoroi and not to mention the Hippeis Tarantinoi are excellent skirmisher cavalry with their armour piercing secondary attacks. I can't mention all the times I have had one of hippakontistai luring away a mounted enemy general from the army, pelted him with javelins and when he's exhausted charged with drawn blades and cut him down!

I didn't mean that they were really bad, but for their price you can easily get better and more useful troops. They have limited ammo and inferior melee ability compared to regular calvary so it's hard to see what they are useful for.

More surprisingly good units: Roarii-an excellent militia unit with large unit size
Thracian pelstats-one of the most versatile in game units