There Will Be No Mod Tools...

[walrus2517]

...and you modders are to blame. Seriously. Follow my logic (or lack thereof).

The mods you guys make, I'm thinking specifically of the large overhauls, are amazing. CA has noticed Third Age TW, Stainless Steel, Roma Surrectum, Europa Barbarorum, etc. They know if they release mod tools for ETW/NTW/S2TW the mod scene will release amazing overhauls again, possibly before they have a chance to release all the DLC they have planned. That isn't good business.

Further, so long as they are making their games on the same engine, releasing mod tools would hurt their sales. ETW was released in March of 2009. Imagine CA had followed the will of the TWC masses and released mod tools either at launch, or even 6 months later. For this thought experiment, let's pretend they released them 6 months later. That means the modding community would've had 18 months to mod ETW before Shogun 2, a game built on the same engine, was released. As wonderful a job as they did with S2TW, the mod scene would've fixed all the problems with ETW and released a few major overhauls before S2TW's release. In fact, it is plausible someone could've made an overhaul set in feudalistic Japan! While I'm sure the majority of us TW fans would still have purchased S2TW, it still could have a significant impact on sales.

Not that I'm on CA's side. As someone who quickly bored with the scope of S2TW after one and a half campaigns I'd love nothing more than to be either playing or anxiously awaiting some major ETW and NTW overhauls. My point in making this post is simply to show that from a business perspective, helping the modders is foolish. What little PR gain they would get from our small community would be outweighed by the loss of income. It sucks, but that's capitalism. That's why despite CA's promise, I would be incredibly surprised if they actually follow through and release mod tools.

Now stepping off the soap box...

EDIT: And just in case anyone from CA reads this, would you guys at least consider releasing the mod tools once you've moved on to another engine? Thanks.

[Aonghus G. Friedhold]

Yeah, because Medieval 2 absolutely bombed because of Rome's overhauls.

[walrus2517]

Yeah, because Medieval 2 absolutely bombed because of Rome's overhauls.

Good point, but I'd counter by arguing the modding community is exponentially larger and more organized than it was then.

[alhoon]

Good point, but I'd counter by arguing the modding community is exponentially larger and more organized than it was then.

There's one fundamental flaw in your logic:
There were some modding tools made for ETW and NTW. These tools could make units. I.e. they competed against the DLCs.
I.e. the only thing modders could do weeks after ETW's release was release units, and antagonize DLCs.

Now, on other things: As Taw said for the maps, it would require work, it would be hard to make tools, but it's certainly open and possible. The community works on that, and we will get mapping tools in time. That time may be in a year, but we will get there when we do.

So, no, CA didn't actively worked against modding. They upgraded to a new engine that's unfortunately harder to mod.

[General Brittanicus]

There's one fundamental flaw in your logic:
There were some modding tools made for ETW and NTW. These tools could make units. I.e. they competed against the DLCs.
I.e. the only thing modders could do weeks after ETW's release was release units, and antagonize DLCs.

Now, on other things: As Taw said for the maps, it would require work, it would be hard to make tools, but it's certainly open and possible. The community works on that, and we will get mapping tools in time. That time may be in a year, but we will get there when we do.

So, no, CA didn't actively worked against modding. They upgraded to a new engine that's unfortunately harder to mod.

Indeed, the full extent of CA's mod tools for the previous games was perhaps the unpacker that they released too late for M2TW, they haven't done it before, so why do people all of a sudden expect it now?

Plus we are only just figuring out how to do some stuff such as editing settlements on M2TW many years after its initial release, i too believe we will get a map editing tool from the community as well eventually if it is possible to make a tool to change the map and nothing to do with it is hardcoded.

[walrus2517]

they haven't done it before, so why do people all of a sudden expect it now?

Because they said they would.

[walrus2517]

There's one fundamental flaw in your logic:
There were some modding tools made for ETW and NTW. These tools could make units. I.e. they competed against the DLCs.
I.e. the only thing modders could do weeks after ETW's release was release units, and antagonize DLCs.

Now, on other things: As Taw said for the maps, it would require work, it would be hard to make tools, but it's certainly open and possible. The community works on that, and we will get mapping tools in time. That time may be in a year, but we will get there when we do.

So, no, CA didn't actively worked against modding. They upgraded to a new engine that's unfortunately harder to mod.

I wasn't aware unit editors were available so soon so that does take away from my argument. And I'm not saying CA is actively working against modding, or that there is some grand conspiracy to stifle the modding community. I'm just trying to understand why they don't do more for the modders like Bethesda does.

In regards to the "new engine is harder to mod", I've seen quite a few modders say just the opposite; that the engine used in ETW/NTW/S2TW is easier to mod. As I understand it, the reason people can't do big mods isn't because it's harder but because everything modders need access to is closed off by CA. I am not a modder so other than editing text files in RTW and M2TW I have no experience. I'm just going off the posts of other modders, so I could be wrong.

[Humble Warrior]

Sigh... I dunno. Seems like people just don`t see or want to ask the difficult questions.

Question:

1. Why won`t CA explain THEIR point of view on the modding situation truthfully?

2. Why won`t CA make their game engines with MODDING tools in mind? Why do they continuously do this?

3. Why do they promise Mod tools, stringing modders along, give us excuses on its release delay- then nothing?

4. Why make things so difficult?

5. Why not publicly show some thanks to modders for what they`ve achieved with the little they have?


Sure, I know they`ve helped a little bit (I`ve heard they advised Darth, not sure, I wasn`t there). But why don`t they treat us like adults and TRUTHFULLY answer these questions instead of dodgying around us? Do they have so little respect of us that they are quite happy to ignore us on this issue?

If they don`t speak, then we must make assumptions.

I think I know the answer all ready, but I ask you guys.

[Aeon221]

Sigh... I dunno. Seems like people just don`t see or want to ask the difficult questions.

Question:

1. Why won`t CA explain THEIR point of view on the modding situation truthfully?

2. Why won`t CA make their game engines with MODDING tools in mind? Why do they continuously do this?

3. Why do they promise Mod tools, stringing modders along, give us excuses on its release delay- then nothing?

4. Why make things so difficult?

5. Why not publicly show some thanks to modders for what they`ve achieved with the little they have?


Sure, I know they`ve helped a little bit (I`ve heard they advised Darth, not sure, I wasn`t there). But why don`t they treat us like adults and TRUTHFULLY answer these questions instead of dodgying around us? Do they have so little respect of us that they are quite happy to ignore us on this issue?

If they don`t speak, then we must make assumptions.

I think I know the answer all ready, but I ask you guys.

Why should they treat the community like adults when the community doesn't act like adults. Speaking as a sales guy at a major wholesale ISP, customers are generally nice enough when they want something, but once they're on maintenance mode they're as hell. If stuff isn't working right, it's often down to problems that aren't our fault. And while our tech guys and gals will help them get stuff fixed, it's irritating to hear them giving our hard working support staff the verbal equivalent of a flaming for something they didn't cause and shouldn't -- strictly speaking -- be fixing. It's straight up not our problem if an end user on a T1 is having problems -- blame the reseller, dude, we're in a telcom hotel somewhere, we didn't build that line, we don't operate that line and, hey, you don't pay our bills -- but we often end up fixing it. And getting out for it.

Wading into a gaming forum is a brutal experience for community management, because it's a lot like the customers we have except with a culture of childish entitlement, flaming and abuse. Anything abusive that can be said about a CM's post will be said, repeatedly. And if something, because of time or budget constraints, that they said would be done can't be done, it will be used as a club to beat them with every time they post something else.

So, surprise, they say nothing most of the time and try to avoid direct contact with the community whenever possible, leaving gaming journalists and news posts to do the heavy lifting on corporate-fan communication.

Why don't we know the real story on the mod tools? Because the likeliest story is that there is no story. Most of the Total War assigned teams are probably working on an expansion or the next title, one or two teams are probably assigned to maintenance mode and DLC development for Shogun 2, and maybe one guy is doing some mod tools in his downtime. It might be a bit different -- everyone might be pulling shifts on Shogun 2 since it isn't quite feature complete, what with the lack of DX11 -- but that's what I'd expect based on our in house software development process.

What would they tell us? Joe Programmer is doing some work on the tools, and they'll get done when he's got some free time? You guys would and moan because your perception of what is important is vastly different from CA's (correct) perception of what is important. Mod tools are like an orange slice on a Blue Moon draft -- you don't need em, they don't add to the profit for the bar, they just make the experience a little more pleasant and since it's not a big effort or cost the bar will usually add it. So if Joe Programmer gets slammed with tasks or laid off or just plain old bored, we don't get mod tools because he's the only one working on it and nobody else wants to do it (or nobody else is so, uh, blessed with an abundance of time, or in other words not critical to core project tasks, or in other words useless enough to be tossed on a minimally important side project). That's life.


Also, I'm kind of sick of all the people about CA being a money hungry corporation, etc etc. You're damn right they're a money hungry corporation. They've got a couple hundred people working there, and those people need to eat, make mortgage and car payments, send their kids to school and stuff like that. If they're not grubbing money, those folks are gonna be stuck looking for new work because, hey, nobody likes to go dumpster diving unless they're a goddamn hipster with more money than sense.

[chris10]

Sigh... I dunno. Seems like people just don`t see or want to ask the difficult questions.

Question:

1. Why won`t CA explain THEIR point of view on the modding situation truthfully?

2. Why won`t CA make their game engines with MODDING tools in mind? Why do they continuously do this?

3. Why do they promise Mod tools, stringing modders along, give us excuses on its release delay- then nothing?

4. Why make things so difficult?

5. Why not publicly show some thanks to modders for what they`ve achieved with the little they have?

1. They dont have to...what makes you think they are obliged to answer ?
2. Again this is not of nobodys buisness...their decision...they sell games and not mod support and tools
3. hmm..this a point..maybe somebody in CA management planned to do but got overruled by SEGA...who knows
4. They dont make things difficult..they do their buisness...who makes it so difficult is the ranters asking things and trying to extort something of CA they are not prepared to deliver...this is no relationship where partners are discussing things...people buy a game..can rant about bugs, ask for patches..and thats it..end of story
5. Again...for what ?...I said it a thousand times already...mods do not promote sells (profitwise) and if people stop mod TW games today CA and SEGA wont even notice a dfiference in the yearly financial report...modders have to face this bitter truth as they take themself much more imporant than they acutally are...classic case of self-overestimation

Also, I'm kind of sick of all the people about CA being a money hungry corporation, etc etc. You're damn right they're a money hungry corporation. They've got a couple hundred people working there, and those people need to eat, make mortgage and car payments, send their kids to school and stuff like that. If they're not grubbing money, those folks are gonna be stuck looking for new work because, hey, nobody likes to go dumpster diving unless they're a goddamn hipster with more money than sense.

well..every once in a while there are people around with some understanding but this is dangerous ground pal !

[metenojo]

There's one fundamental flaw in your logic:
There were some modding tools made for ETW and NTW. These tools could make units. I.e. they competed against the DLCs.
I.e. the only thing modders could do weeks after ETW's release was release units, and antagonize DLCs.

Now, on other things: As Taw said for the maps, it would require work, it would be hard to make tools, but it's certainly open and possible. The community works on that, and we will get mapping tools in time. That time may be in a year, but we will get there when we do.

So, no, CA didn't actively worked against modding. They upgraded to a new engine that's unfortunately harder to mod.

But CA could give a little help with mapping ,the Empire map is hard to mod,and i really don't see any advantage to CA in not have a big world map. Maybe they want people get bored with the actual game to jump to the next.

[Daneboy]

Yeah, because Medieval 2 absolutely bombed because of Rome's overhauls.

LOL! I agree.

I actually believe that the mods extend the long livety of the games. People are actually still buying MTW2, and it isn´t because Vanilla is just such a great game.

[Stealthorgasm]

I once bought a game specifically because of its modding capabilities.

[Beowulf1990]

Fair point, but it doesn't make sense I'm afraid. Esthetically pleasing though! Good Post structure.
Also, the only reason I own M&B is because of the mods.

[St. Cyr]

I think your argument is wrong. I've made and played mods for every single total war game and it never has stopped me from buying their newest installment. However skilled modders are, they can never develop a brand new game engine, and all trimmings that a big budget company with paid professional designers can do.

So all mods did was keep me playing their games, kept me interested and hooked on the series, and a guaranteed costumer for any future iterations. To me, mods have made me a bigger, more devoted fan of total war, not taken away from it.

There aren't too many people on this board that bought Rome TW and never bought another game because it's so "modabble".

In any event, each game has gotten progressively more difficult and limited to mod, so you will be getting your wish.

[walrus2517]

There aren't too many people on this board that bought Rome TW and never bought another game because it's so "modabble".

In any event, each game has gotten progressively more difficult and limited to mod, so you will be getting your wish.

First, as I pointed out in another post, the mod scene is much bigger and more organized that it was when RTW was released. Second, you are correct that it would be foolish not to buy ETW because there are mods for RTW. That's why my OP mentioned not releasing mod tools as long as you are using the same engine.

I'm not sure what my wish was, since I said I'm not on CA's side and would love nothing more than to be playing/awaiting a wonderful overhaul mod to ETW.

The point of my OP is just to kill anyone's hopes of ever getting mod tools from CA.

And to the person who said it is probably Sega's fault, you are most likely correct. Nevertheless, everyone seems to love bashing CA so we'll keep blaming them.

[Huberto]

It remains a mystery why CA/SEGA won't release mod tools. It's clearly not worth the effort to them, incredibly as they'd promised them. As a result of this behavior they've lost my business, not that they care or anything.

[Abe86]

I think moddable games make sense from a business perspective: they make games stay on hard-drives longer, establishing the game as a platform for later DLC and other microtransactions.
As to hurting the sales of future games, I believe that's incorrect as the vast majority of consumers are unaware of the existence of mods for total war games.

In my view the absence of mod tools can simply be traced back to an engine that's less mod-friendly or easily editable, I really doubt there's any scheming on CA's part here.

[Beowulf1990]

I think moddable games make sense from a business perspective: they make games stay on hard-drives longer, establishing the game as a platform for later DLC and other microtransactions.
As to hurting the sales of future games, I believe that's incorrect as the vast majority of consumers are unaware of the existence of mods for total war games.

In my view the absence of mod tools can simply be traced back to an engine that's less mod-friendly or easily editable, I really doubt there's any scheming on CA's part here.

Well that's because there isn't. I've been saying that for a while now. Lack of dedicated support does not equal malevolent opposition.

[Abe86]

Well that's because there isn't. I've been saying that for a while now. Lack of dedicated support does not equal malevolent opposition.

yeah but you have to admit they released a soundtrack of shogun 2 instead of adding anti-aliasing support, that's downright diabolical.