Standing in Water...

[Ragga]

Quick Questions...

In a couple of recent games, an opponet put his archers in water??? i was like, wtfuct... so i obviously charged em with some cav considering they would not be able to run away quickly. However, the charge went well... but it took a considerable amout of time to rout the units.

Question:

- Do archers or any other units get any bonus by being in the water vs. Cav?
- Do Cav get some type of penilty?
- Archer vs Archer... one in the water one on land... who wins (this is sorta why i think they put em there)
- Any other facts that you have about Water would be nice...

Thanks...

[Haru]

It slows down Cavalry charges especially. The next chance you get, just hover your mouse over the water or any cover on the battlefield it will give you a brief explanation of what it does to units.

[Knowing Crow]

It reduced the cavalry's charge, heavily reducing the amount of force delivered and thus there will be less casualties from charges. No other bonuses, but charge is what makes the rider, all else is unimportant. If you can stop the charge the cavalry are easy pickings for infantry, even great guard (Only exception is Katana Cavalry, but no one fields those).

Archers versus archers, benefits only occur via height advantage, and if they don't have something blocking their sight causing them to arc their fire upwards, which heavily reduces lethality. Height advantage gives accuracy bonuses, which can give the group on land an edge. All things being equal, being in water does nothing else. It might reduce effectiveness of fire arrows, but I don't know; that would need more testing and/or confirmation.

It does, however, make infantry practically impervious to Fire Rockets and Mongonels, as it nullifies the explosion. They have to hit the unit directly. Artillery can still do a lot of damage to cavalry, but only through direct hits rather than explosive spread.

[dmcheatw]

It reduced the cavalry's charge, heavily reducing the amount of force delivered and thus there will be less casualties from charges. No other bonuses, but charge is what makes the rider, all else is unimportant. If you can stop the charge the cavalry are easy pickings for infantry, even great guard (Only exception is Katana Cavalry, but no one fields those).

Archers versus archers, benefits only occur via height advantage, and if they don't have something blocking their sight causing them to arc their fire upwards, which heavily reduces lethality. Height advantage gives accuracy bonuses, which can give the group on land an edge. All things being equal, being in water does nothing else. It might reduce effectiveness of fire arrows, but I don't know; that would need more testing and/or confirmation.

It does, however, make infantry practically impervious to Fire Rockets and Mongonels, as it nullifies the explosion. They have to hit the unit directly. Artillery can still do a lot of damage to cavalry, but only through direct hits rather than explosive spread.

you sure about that part?

[Abe86]

you sure about that part?

From my experience in multiplayer, archers on hills do seem much more lethal, there are of course a lot of factors at play like veterancy, inspire etc... but it sure seems to work that way. One certainty is that archers no longer gain a range bonus on hills in Shogun 2.

[Knowing Crow]

you sure about that part?

Absolutely, even explained as a benefit for high ground by the developers (the accuracy part). The blocking line of sight thing is only if they are behind a steep hill; even with height advantage if the archers have to shoot upwards the arrows will not be very lethal in most situations. Water levels are typically lower than land levels, thus you'll only really find height advantage by being on land.

[dmcheatw]

Absolutely, even explained as a benefit for high ground by the developers (the accuracy part). The blocking line of sight thing is only if they are behind a steep hill; even with height advantage if the archers have to shoot upwards the arrows will not be very lethal in most situations. Water levels are typically lower than land levels, thus you'll only really find height advantage by being on land.

ok cool, thanks for that info +rep

[vanadis]

Water also blocks the splash damage from fire mangonels.

[Abe86]

Knowing Crow, you're certainly aptly named ! Regarding terrain factors affecting archers, I also thought forests blocked arrows, though to my knowledge it has yet to be tested if it's more beneficial to shoot out of a forest during an archer duel, as I'm unsure if the forest would block your own arrows.

[Knowing Crow]

The forest will only block your arrows from shooting within it if you were deep within. Arrows aren't instantly blocked, and they'll even go through your own troops without killing for for the first instant after shooting them. Thus it is certainly beneficial to fire from within a forest, just try not to hide too deeply. Think realistically. It seems that simply being in a forest also reduces the lethality of the arrows that hits, but that would require more testing.

On another point, it reduces the charge of all units, not just cavalry. So standing in water can be beneficial if you wish to dull a charge, but keep in mind you can't charge either.

[Arimahn]

Edit: Damn should've read all of Crows post first.

[StormtrooperDan]

I'm suspecting that this was done to help alleviate hill campers.

[Abe86]

I'm suspecting that this was done to help alleviate hill campers.

Yep, and I'm kind of grateful for it coming back from my last three games.