Doesn't the Holocaust Prove That YHWH Doesn't Exist?

[Exarch]

going by the narrative of the Torah, we are introduced to the israeli god YHWH who proves himself via his words and deeds to be quite protective (in a rather warped way) and possessive over his 'chosen people', even going so far as order the death penalty for those who no longer worship him.

yet where is this YHWH character when the Nazis were exterminating YHWH's Chosen People?

according to records~6,000,000 jews died before it finally ended; no small change either; you'd think that if there was a god he or she would've done something about it, or to prevent it, especially when it's a hefty portion of this deity's so called 'Chosen People'

[Squiggle]

going by the narrative of the Torah, we are introduced to the israeli god YHWH who proves himself via his words and deeds to be quite protective (in a rather warped way) and possessive over his 'chosen people', even going so far as order the death penalty for those who no longer worship him.

yet where is this YHWH character when the Nazis were exterminating YHWH's Chosen People?

The Chosen people existed so as to maintain God's message until the world intellectually and politically was ready for it. They hold no special relation with God anymore...in fact if you ever bothered to delve into Christian theology [given the idiotic nature of this thread you havent] you would know that Christians often refer to themselves as the chosen people. The old covenant was fulfilled through Jesus Christ.

[Exarch]

The Chosen people existed so as to maintain God's message until the world intellectually and politically was ready for it. They hold no special relation with God anymore...in fact if you ever bothered to delve into Christian theology [given the idiotic nature of this thread you havent] you would know that Christians often refer to themselves as the chosen people. The old covenant was fulfilled through Jesus Christ.

ahem
somehow i believe 'the chosen people' haven't stopped maintaining 'god's message', say, what is that message anyhow?
esp. given that the majority of adherants of judaism dont regard jesus as the messiah.

sorry, squiggle. disappointing i know.

One could argue he prevented the rest of the Jews from being massacred or that he was "testing" their faith, rather cruelly. Of course this is all speculation and I believe the fact that such genocides have been able to go on is more an indicator that a God is not involved in our lives, but that doesn't rule out God playing a different role (e.g. Voltaire and grandfather clock).

seems an especially cruel way to test their faith innit?
almost exterminating them, what would be the rationale for any deity to want to allow his/her/its worshippers to be massacred?
don't they draw power from all those prayers?

[cfmonkey45]

ahem
somehow i believe 'the chosen people' haven't stopped maintaining 'god's message', say, what is that message anyhow?
esp. given that the majority of adherants of judaism dont regard jesus as the messiah.

sorry, squiggle. disappointing i know.

I think he's arguing that Jews stopped being the Chosen People circa 30 AD and that mantle passed to Christianity. With this logic, the argument doesn't disprove the existence of YHWH, only the veracity of modern Judaism.

[Exarch]

I think he's arguing that Jews stopped being the Chosen People circa 30 AD and that mantle passed to Christianity. With this logic, the argument doesn't disprove the existence of YHWH, only the veracity of modern Judaism.

ooh i see what you're saying, so when the jews were no longer YHWH's 'Chosen People', it was open season for them?
doesnt sound like a very nice thing for YHWH to do, but it does sound like him alright

[Scipio Africanus Maximus]

My boss asked me one time if I had ever thought of the Holocaust as a sort of punishment for the death of Jesus. He said he wasn't going to say for sure that it was, but that it was something to think about.

Note: I certianly do not think that, and the only reason I didn't go off on him about it was that he is my boss.

[Exarch]

My boss asked me one time if I had ever thought of the Holocaust as a sort of punishment for the death of Jesus. He said he wasn't going to say for sure that it was, but that it was something to think about.

kinda silly isn't it, especially if jesus was meant to die 'in order to cleanse away our sins'

[Armenum]

One could argue he prevented the rest of the Jews from being massacred or that he was "testing" their faith, rather cruelly. Of course this is all speculation and I believe the fact that such genocides have been able to go on is more an indicator that a God is not involved in our lives, but that doesn't rule out God playing a different role (e.g. Voltaire and grandfather clock).

[Claudius Gothicus]

In the twisted logic of the abrahamic god, he couldn't stop human's freewill?(yeah I know, it's kinda like he realized he had given us freewill by the high middle ages or something)

[Exarch]

In the twisted logic of the abrahamic god, he couldn't stop human's freewill?(yeah I know, it's kinda like he realized he had given us freewill by the high middle ages or something)

but why would YHWH decide to stop meddling especially when he seemed so obsessed with little things like circumcision amongst the israelites and having little kidney bits as offerings for himself

[SPECTREtm]

In the twisted logic of the abrahamic god, he couldn't stop human's freewill?(yeah I know, it's kinda like he realized he had given us freewill by the high middle ages or something)

Yeah, but "God" is all knowning and all powerful.

Either he's/It's a dick or isn't all knowning and all powerful. Freewill my arse, if a deity can create the Universe, then controlling the mind is childplay.

[basics]

" if a deity can create the Universe, then controlling the mind is childplay. "

SPECTREtm,

That's assuming He wants to control the mind of His creation which Scripture tells us He does not. Humanity was created where not one knew/knows if he or she will be saved until it happens, their names being written down before any were even born and until the day the books are opened we still won't know for sure who is and who isn't. Yes we can discern by the Spirit who else has the same Spirit but this only in those we commune with.

As for free-will, you are quite correct it does not exist, never has and never will. In fact nowhere in all Scripture does it say that man has the ability to return to God by his own will. Yes we all have a will but it is not free in terms of our relationship with God and even our relationships with our fellow human beings. Humanity is run under Law or natural law so where is the freedom in that?

Further, when it comes to controlling the mind where better to start than at the feet of man himself who in the introduction of religion whatever that may be is about mind control. God has but one purpose, believe Him, religion has many purposes, many rules and if one does not play by them there are many ways by which an adherent can readjust his or her position within its ranks. God deals in faith, religion deals in works and never the twain shall mix.

[Volcanic]

going by the narrative of the Torah, we are introduced to the israeli god YHWH who proves himself via his words and deeds to be quite protective (in a rather warped way) and possessive over his 'chosen people', even going so far as order the death penalty for those who no longer worship him.

yet where is this YHWH character when the Nazis were exterminating YHWH's Chosen People?

according to records~6,000,000 jews died before it finally ended; no small change either; you'd think that if there was a god he or she would've done something about it, or to prevent it, especially when it's a hefty portion of this deity's so called 'Chosen People'

Going by the narrative of my the "Believe-Dude"-book, a crazy god named YHWH started to rock to place. But many a prophet like Exarch or some real jewish dudes started to think?? -
"Let them be choosen! Even if the people or their sons and daughters are bastards. Choose!..."
But then although choosen no-"ish-ness" befell the racially sorted out (altough racially out-sorting is so fully dumm and 100% really dumm); It is... ohh bugger - no interest in further US PC-ness. Bye!!

PS: OH choosen! OH Santa Clause! OH Fairy! OH... how mistakable...

EDIT: How can anyone use the terms "choosen", "people" or "racial dick-heads" that easily?!

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

There's that argument again.
Firstly, He and the Christian God (otherwise known as God) are the same divine being, so just reffer to Him as God.
Secondly, nobody knows how God works. He might have not interfered in Earth matters after the Biblical period at all, He might have made it happen for the greater good in the long run, we are mortals and we can't judge anything God does as 'cruel' or 'inhumane', he is all-mighty and all-knowing, he knows what he's doing and spite or mercilessness don't play a part in His working.

[basics]

" yet where is this YHWH character when the Nazis were exterminating YHWH's Chosen People? "

Exarch,

In the Spiritual sense, Biblically speaking, most Jews were sinners just like most Gentiles are so in the legality of the horrific event those that perished did so under the Law. Yet if we take all other things into account during those days is it not fair to say that the Gentiles suffered terribly too some 27 million Russians alone perishing.

From the fall of man each person was doomed to die through the curse, as I've said before, the manner of death is inconsequential. When the Law was given to Moses rather than save any all it did was condemn those under it all the more because it brought out sin where it was perhaps overlooked before.

It is said that some 11 million Africans die every year because of aids related disease and if you were to add all other deaths across the world regardless of how it is dealt out, road deaths, wars, diseases etc, the numbers are quite significantly way beyond those of the Holocaust. The Holocaust bears the singularity in that a race of people were singled out for extermination on a scale never seen before.

It is also interesting to note that most who did die were Ashkenazi who when they were a nation called the Khazars converted to Judaism on block and are still regarded by other Jews as not really Jewish. When that nation was eventually defeated the survivors spread out across Eastern Europe mostly in Poland, Germany and Russia among others.

So where was God? Protecting all those of all peoples that belonged to Him, Jew and Gentile alike, all those that Paul called the true Israel of God who are separated from the world through regeneration or being born again. Those that died were not that being still under the Law or natural law. So when one looks at the sheer scale of these things it should mark out the necessity of having a Redeemer, a Saviour, but alas it doesn't.

[PointOfViewGun]

going by the narrative of the Torah, we are introduced to the israeli god YHWH who proves himself via his words and deeds to be quite protective (in a rather warped way) and possessive over his 'chosen people', even going so far as order the death penalty for those who no longer worship him.

yet where is this YHWH character when the Nazis were exterminating YHWH's Chosen People?

according to records~6,000,000 jews died before it finally ended; no small change either; you'd think that if there was a god he or she would've done something about it, or to prevent it, especially when it's a hefty portion of this deity's so called 'Chosen People'

I think we've past that point when He sent them with no direction or map to the desert.

[Cooraan]

I think we've past that point when He sent them with no direction or map to the desert.

Errr except they knew where they were going.....

[PointOfViewGun]

Errr except they knew where they were going.....

And it took them 40 years?

[Old_Scratch]

And it took them 40 years?

It's not that they were lost or Yahweh didn't help them, he was purposely punishing them. Apparently they complained a little too much and when they complained about how they wouldn't be able to kill all the people, including the Nephilim, already living in their promised land, Yahweh had had enough. In Numbers 14 Yahweh condemns them all to wander the desert until they die for complaining so much.

Num 14:32-33 "But for you, your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness. And your children shall be shepherds in this wilderness for forty years, and shall suffer for your faithlessness, until the last of your dead bodies lies in the wilderness." NRSV

So it's another example of Yahweh punishing his chosen people.

[justicar5]

no, and low tactic.