Questions From A Noob

[LoneTophat]

I think I've finally gotten the basics down. I'm going to start a new campaign as Oda on Normal difficulty. I'll update this list as questions come to mind. Thanks for those who answer them. I'm playing Darth's Mod btw.
So to start my questions off:
1. Is it feasible to stack armies with only ashigaru units, even as Oda? If not, what would you suggest I add in? I'm thinking a good army would be mostly spearmen some bowmen and then a couple katana samurai?

2. What are the keys to a strong economy? I'm finding I only use ninjas so why markets? I'm always invested in trade due to the massive amounts of koku you can make, but once RD hits am I ed?

3. I'm never sure what traits to pick with Generals, Darth Mod gives you 3 character points instead of 2. Is the Poet thing worth it or should I stick to Infantry/Ashigaru traits? I tend to max my strategy so I can move about faster anyway.

4. Are vassals a good idea when you first start expanding? Or should I hold of for RD? RD is a little less horrible with Darth's Mod luckily, but I still end up getting hit by 10 clans declaring war.

5. THE ULTIMATE QUESTION: CHRISTIANITY OR BUDDHISM? Which one. D:

6. Allies. How many should I have? Weak or strong? They keep declaring war on each other so maybe I have to many...?

7. Should I occupy all captured provinces or loot them?

[Monsieur Alphonse]

1. Yes. You can upgrade their armour in an encampment ==> armoury. If you capture a region with a smith (look north for it as the Oda) you can upgrade their armour even more. These kind of armies can easily defend an castle.

2. Agriculture. Look for rich farmlands. Owari has rich lands as does the Kii region. Ad in regions you don't use for producing units a market but don't upgrade that one to rice exchange.

3. I always go for the extra movement points, then for the poet (one point) and finally for the hold your ground one.

4. If you use Darth Mod vassals won't turn on you AFAIK. You can trade with them which will bring in some extra money.

5. Buddhism. Otherwise every one will hate you.

6. Use allies to weaken you enemies. Or use an alliance as a non aggression pact. Since I play Vanilla my allies will always turn om me.

7. Occupy. Looting will lower your Daimyo's honour. This will make diplomacy worthless and will cause a lot of rebellions and defecting generals.

[Aeon221]

The key thing to note about the Oda is that they are the Japanese equivalent of the zerg. Your army doctrine is low quality hordes, not small numbers of samurai. Everything flows from that critical first concept.

As Oda, Christianity can beef up your sweetass ashigaru with cannons. Also helps with Nanban trade ships, which can annihilate enemy fleets -- critical, because you _will_ have a huge coastline and the AI will come for you on RD. Well, maybe not with DM, since it rips the heart out of RD and makes the game easy mode, but whatever. The diplo hit is minimal, and can be ignored.

My armies as Oda on VH are entirely ashigaru, with the occasional cavalry complement if I feel like spicing things up. Samurai are honorless dogs who want tons of money and regular bjs, I say to hell with them. Because they're so goddamn cheap, I'll have six or seven stacks running around before 1560, which easily makes me the single greatest power in Japan and allows for nigh on constant expansion in all directions. Trade is pretty irrelevant, it's nice enough for the extra cash but as Oda you can easily support an enormous army of ashigaru with nothing but tax income and still pump out 6k+ a turn.

Economic development -- pick out the five richest cities you have, upgrade them to the highest level of market possible, and then stick a l2 metsuke (with +2 to city oversight) in each. These guys will roughly double the tax take in those cities, keep them safe from bribery attempts and prevent unrest from ever being a problem. They will constitute your economic back bone. The rest of your cities you should leave at fort level, except for two or three cities with military bonuses, which you should raise to the highest level of castle possible and build an encampment->armory to create bonused super badass ashigaru. The rest of the spare slots can be tossed into stuff like sake dens, temples, siege gear and cavalry. Since you won't be wasting your money on samurai, there's no real reason to build the various dojos!

Generals should have maxed out the following three traits: Strategist, Infantry Commander, and Ashigaru Commander. You can put any other points wherever you want -- I'll toss them into Poet or Cavalry or making the general a better fighter depending on my mood. Stand and Fight is your most critical power, and will turn your ashigaru into samurai annihilating engines of doom. 60+ reload on bows is about as deadly as, well, as 60+ reload on bows. Between that and the insane buffs you'll get to morale, you will be able to chew through multiple stacks with no trouble.

Farms are super critical, as is spare food. Nothing is more important than having the maximum possible spare food available -- it is the superfuel of your economic engine! Do not upgrade castles unless it is absolutely critical! Do not upgrade markets ever, except in your five metsuke bonused cities. I cannot stress this enough -- you're better off having a fort in a border province than upgrading to a castle and losing out on 2-3 rice worth of growth in each of your cities!

When fighting, try to keep your armies dense. A single long line just means fewer troops with the bonus from your general's Stand and Fight aura. With larger armies, you will want to have a line two or three units deep. You can throw these guys into the line if a breakthrough seems likely, or wheel them around and hit the enemy from the rear. Note on staunching breakthroughs, I've never had S&F bonused ashigaru flee, and I've never seen an enemy break through a unit in spearwall even when they massively outnumber him. It could possibly happen, but with the number of stacked bonuses and with morale far in excess of what a standard samurai can get, I sincerely doubt it. You might need to pull a unit back if three units gang up on it, because your doughty peasants WILL fight to the death, but otherwise you can expect your ashigaru to go through samurai like a fat chick through cupcakes.

Oda are the only clan that get bonused gunpowder based troopers. You can tech for it if you want (I'm testing gunpowder based armies in my current campaign), but I'd personally recommend focusing on getting your spear dudes bonus chevrons -- having recruits pop with 3+ chevrons is a mighty fine thing. You can also focus on buffing your archers, but I've never felt it was worthwhile -- your archers are already godly when buffed with S&F, so more bonuses are worth comparatively less. Other critical research areas are farms and markets, because they underpin your economy. I personally disregard agents and agent research as Oda -- not much point in having them when you can swarm the enemy with overwhelming numbers. I also ignore swords, because peasants can't use em, and boats because I mostly stick to Nanban trade ships or hordes of medium bunes, which outclass much of what the AI will send against you. If they have better quality ships, so what, just send in two stacks of medium bunes and overrun them with boarding actions. You might also want to consider the sail based ships with extra marines, because, again, boarding is how you will win your naval battles with minimal casualties.


That's basically what I've picked up after extensive play with the Oda. They have what appears to be a rough start, but their bonus is by far the best in the game and will make it trivial to swallow vast quantities of territory right from the start. Besides, as Oda you really do want to have as many enemies as you can -- after all, you can pretty much bank on being able to outnumber any three other powers in the game combined with your hordes of obscenely bonused peasants! Oh, and a side note -- the game seems to count peasants as less effective when developing your power score. You should consider yourself a tier above whatever it says, because you will certainly be able to punch above your weight class to that degree.

Have fun!

[asdfen]

The key thing to note about the Oda is that they are the Japanese equivalent of the zerg.
Have fun!

haha! man this is good. thanks for making me laugh.

[StormtrooperDan]

The key thing to note about the Oda is that they are the Japanese equivalent of the zerg. Your army doctrine is low quality hordes, not small numbers of samurai. Everything flows from that critical first concept.

Oh dang, good post!

[Eusebius86]

I think I've finally gotten the basics down. I'm going to start a new campaign as Oda on Normal difficulty. I'll update this list as questions come to mind. Thanks for those who answer them. I'm playing Darth's Mod btw.
So to start my questions off:
1. Is it feasible to stack armies with only ashigaru units, even as Oda? If not, what would you suggest I add in? I'm thinking a good army would be mostly spearmen some bowmen and then a couple katana samurai?

2. What are the keys to a strong economy? I'm finding I only use ninjas so why markets? I'm always invested in trade due to the massive amounts of koku you can make, but once RD hits am I ed?

3. I'm never sure what traits to pick with Generals, Darth Mod gives you 3 character points instead of 2. Is the Poet thing worth it or should I stick to Infantry/Ashigaru traits? I tend to max my strategy so I can move about faster anyway.

4. Are vassals a good idea when you first start expanding? Or should I hold of for RD? RD is a little less horrible with Darth's Mod luckily, but I still end up getting hit by 10 clans declaring war.

5. THE ULTIMATE QUESTION: CHRISTIANITY OR BUDDHISM? Which one. D:

6. Allies. How many should I have? Weak or strong? They keep declaring war on each other so maybe I have to many...?

7. Should I occupy all captured provinces or loot them?

1. Get some armor from an encampment. Produce your units in a territory with either a blacksmith or a shrine (morale bonus)

2. Dont go above a normal tax rate for long term growth. get markets in your big cities (look at the revenue they make). Recruit metsuke and put them in your largest cities. They have a 5% tax bonus per star.

3. I get traits that increase movement, and bushido mastery rate.

4. I don't ever due vassals b/c they backstab.

5. Buddhism. Buddhists hate Christians in TWSG2

6. I ally with large clans that don't share my border. I almost never ally with a neighboring clan, because I normally want their stuff. As the Shimazu, I allied with the Imagawa and the Hojo. Chosokabe asked me for an alliance late game and I accepted.

7. Occupy. Looting hurts your honor and relationship with other clans, and it doesn't give you that much money to outweigh peacefully occupying.

* Bonus. Get Darthmod. It makes a lot of enjoyable changes to the game

[Beowulf1990]

Ashigaru armies are possible, but you're far better off with a few katana samurai thrown in as a hard flanking force. Particulary in Darthmod I think.

On economy, head east into Hojo lands. You will find that their starting region has a gold mine, which they will have likely been kind enough to build up for you.

I usually have one general that goes down the poet line, the others I split between the other two.

I have never used a vassal and with Darth I survive RD rather well actually. Just try to get an ally or two early on.

If you like the idea of cannons, Christianity. Otherwise you're better off with Buddhism.

I would naver have more than 2 allies, it's just asking for trouble really.

Always occupy, unless you really need a cash injection fast.

[Beowulf1990]

Sheesh mate. He asked for some pointers, not an entire strategy guide! XD

Good stuff mostly, but defined rigidly. I would add: Be Flexible!

[Aeon221]

Sheesh mate. He asked for some pointers, not an entire strategy guide! XD

Good stuff mostly, but defined rigidly. I would add: Be Flexible!

With Oda, you really can afford to be flexible. Your chief strength is your incredibly efficient conversion of cash to power. Your ashies, when properly bonused, can outfight samurais 1v1 or 2v1, but they cost 1/3rd what that samurai did, and they don't need any investment in infrastructure to build them. In other words, at any given moment you will have 3 times as much force available as any other faction you might play, and you will have spent a great deal less getting together the infrastructure necessary to produce that force.

You don't need to go all that deep into the military tech tree to fully bonus your peasants. And you don't need to really develop castles, because you don't need buildings to build or bonus your peasants. So you can afford to spend a lot of time developing entirely superfluous traits and techs that other, samurai focused factions couldn't get because they need that time, that money and those slots.

So sometimes I'll play the Oda as a gunpowder clan, other times as a seafaring bunch of yarrbears, and still others as an agent heavy destabilizing element. As long as you back it up with their core strength (aka hordes of ashigaru) you're able to do whatever else you want to do.

Honestly my problem is that having played as the Oda, I don't really see the point of playing with any other clan. Every other group is objectively weaker, and straightjacketed into a specific role!

[LoneTophat]

Thanks for the tips. Off to waste another 6 hours of my life.
Also; I'm actually doing damn well with ashigaru units o.o

[I WUB PUGS]

Man, I think I'm gonna go for an Oda Christian campaign after reading this.

[Aeon221]

Yeah, I waited til Realm Divide to pop over to the Dark Side. Jesus loves me, but everyone else thinks I suck :-(

[Beowulf1990]

Yeah, I waited til Realm Divide to pop over to the Dark Side. Jesus loves me, but everyone else thinks I suck :-(

I just converted and about 3 turns later I have bloody revolts all over the place! Had no idea people would get THIS angry.

[Aeon221]

I just converted and about 3 turns later I have bloody revolts all over the place! Had no idea people would get THIS angry.

Yesh! They vill be qvite peeved!

I prepped for it by spreading ashigaru everywhere and I still wasn't quite ready. Brutal! But hilarious!

[Beowulf1990]

Yesh! They vill be qvite peeved!

I prepped for it by spreading ashigaru everywhere and I still wasn't quite ready. Brutal! But hilarious!

I went about it in similar fashion I suspect. I put 6 extra Ashigaru units in each Garrison. Along with the increased Garrison units in Darthmod that means I could defeat most rebel armies that might revolt. Problem is, I didn't expect EVERY province to rebel. The economic damage is catastrofic!

[themichaelx]

I went about it in similar fashion I suspect. I put 6 extra Ashigaru units in each Garrison. Along with the increased Garrison units in Darthmod that means I could defeat most rebel armies that might revolt. Problem is, I didn't expect EVERY province to rebel. The economic damage is catastrofic!

Paving the way for churches will lessen the transition time.

Save some cash and make room in your building slots. Once you convert build churches asap and let the revival begin.

FYI, unlike Buddhist temples, the first tier of churches will also convert neighboring provinces.

Hope that helps.

[Aeon221]

Well, since I'm just databasing today, I'll write up some info on how to manipulate the AI.

Never pay bribes. They're pointless, don't bother. You can pay to get a trade agreement or a war dec, but only if you're sure you'll get value for money.

The AI has patterns, patterns are points of weakness, manipulate them. One pattern is that the AI will attack if you leave one or multiple border provinces ungarrisoned. Use this to extract a wardec against you from a power who has a state of Ambitious or similar, and with whom you are allied or whose allies you did not wish to fight. They don't seem to check the province behind that province, so you can have a couple armies on standby to crush them if they manage to snag the province before you can get in there.

As Oda, primary targets should be the three Clans you're at war with, and the Hojo. Don't ally the Hojo, take them down as fast as possible. They own a rich gold province, and you absolutely must acquire it.

Do whatever you can to secure an alliance with Takeda for the early game -- garrison the borders for now, but you can mostly ignore them since you've snagged their primary expansion turf and they'll be forced to march long distances through mostly worthless provinces to get more turf.

Secondary target is the Kiso or Kisu or whatever those guys in the mountain pass are. This is a prime territory for defending against the Takeda in midgame, as it's one of two routes they can use to hit you. Stone is also a valuable trade resource. I usually build it up since it's often a border territory for much of the midgame, but you can safely leave it as just a fort so long as half a stack is sitting there.

Tertiary targets are the ninja and shrine territories to the west or left of your starting area, where all your victory provinces are. Most of the guys here will be battling back and forth, and they'll almost certainly be weak and easily wiped. They might try to jump you in the early game, but so long as you have some troops on standby you should be able to fend them off.


After that, focus on reducing Takeda to a weak buffer state, or wiping them out, and gaining the mountainous central area of Japan as a defensive buffer against whoever took over eastern Japan. This area makes a great buffer because it isn't worth much, and it's a cast iron to maneuver through because of all the mountains and the big distances. Plus, there's an interior province that literally cannot be attacked, so it reduces your defensive needs in the east to two garrisons plus a couple of spare troopers to reinforce with. From there, you'll either have triggered realm divide, or you'll be close to it. So focus on annihilating or allying with the biggest bad boy in the west -- don't worry about taking their territory, just grind up trooper XP and general stars. It'll put a hurting on their economy, and leave them with nothing to beat you down with. Also swarm Kyoto with three stacks -- don't bother fighting, just autoresolve it. You're pretty much guaranteed to win when it's ~6-8k vs 3k.

Northern Japan is a great place to stuff with diplo vassals. Incite a war, kill their main army, drop a stack in their territory and then offer peace+trade+vassal. They'll take it, they won't betray you and they'll provide you with useful wars to beat down enemies.

That's pretty much it for campaign specific stuff.

I recommend ignoring trade nodes -- you're too far away to guarantee security, and you can't afford to rely on not being blockaded or having a node or a partner knocked out. Plus your all ashigaru armies are cheap enough that you can run off a well built base economy. I'm not kidding when I say you should aim for 6-8 ashigaru stacks by the time you hit 20 provinces.

Good cities for economic development are the gold province, Owari, the place with the ninja hideout and the place with the library upgrade in the west which you can use for buffed metsukes. There's one other place that reliably tops charts with base income, but damned if I can remember it. Might be one of the shrine places.

Initial good city for trooper development is Owari. The two places with the shrines are where you should focus trooper production (high level castle, armory and bonus to morale) because they're closer to where the bulk of the late game fighting will be. Pumping out half a stack a turn from them will be incredibly useful.

Ignore samurai and monk military units. Ashigaru all day erry day. You can also pull charge bonused yari or light cav out of the takeda province, but it's not usually worth it. Metsuke are vital (read above post), ninjas are handy occasionally, monks are totally worthless (don't cause revolts, just conquer stuff).