Starting my first ME2 Vainilla campaign. Some Q´s

[windsupernova]

Hi, I just signed up for this great site, I have only played the Third Age mod for ME2 and some Rome so I an not totally clueless, still I wanted some opinions on some stuff I am planning to do on my Campaign.here is some stuff I want to do:

1.-France Campaign.
2.-I will only take my home borders and colonies in Africa + Middle East and America. This is not a hard rule anyways so I might extend more but I just want it to make sense.
3.- I will try not to kill any Christian Faction mostly I will try to make them my vassals.
4.- Be an upstanding country with good relations with the papacy

Basically what I don't want is to rush through the campaign and finish my objectives before the cool events kick in.

Here are my Questions:

1.- What would be the most "realistic" regions that France would have interests in, I mean I can take the whole Pentagon that is modern France, but i do think that eating into some of Germany+ Northern Italy would be good places to expand.

2.- I know that to make someone your Vassal you need to cripple them economically and be stronger than then. I suppose that if I get them down to 1 Region and offer them vassalage and their starting regions they could accept one thing I want to know is if my Vassals(Who will probably be HRE, Spain and maybe Milan) will rebel if the grow too strong.

3.-As for alliances,historically which ones would make most sense? I think Spain and Scotland?

4.-Also,since I don't plan on having a huge connected empire I will do most of my Elite recruiting on French regions so I need suggestions on which city/castle should especialize in, right now I am thinking in this(This is mostly based for getting Guilds HQ):

-Tolouse will remain a Castle, I will do most of my recruiting here, hopefully I can get a swordmasters Guild here.
-Paris will be my religious center, great cathedral and all my priests will come from here.is Paris a really good city for that? Or should I make it a more commerce based one?
-I plan to make marseille my commercial centre, I want to get a Merchants HQ there. Paris could probably take its place but i am not sure enough
-As for City Castle conversion, I think on keeping Tolouse and Bern ans Castles but I think that leaves my north border with the HRE too vulnerable.What do you guys think?
- And Lastly I just can't seem to find any good place to develop to get Spy\Assasins Guild. It feels wrong to have those guilds in a Rich Coastal Region so maybe I could develop those in Metz and Djon? as they both are landlocked? or should I develop them in one of my colonies?

Those are 3 of my main concerns, I have no qualms in destroying Muslim factions because that makes sense to me(and will probably kill Christian Factions and vassal the Muslim factions when I play a Muslim Faction) and i want to fight the Mongols.

Edit: Sorry forgot to post my General gameplan.

I expect to take all rebel settlements surrounding me, that includes bern, Metz and Antwerp.

I know that Eventually either the HRE, England or Milan will attack me, if its England Great because I will have an excuse to kick them out of France. If its one of the other 2 I plan to take their provinces until I can make them my Vassals.After I have secured my borders I will wait for a Crusade on Jerusalem to start my Christian kingdom there, I will also take the islands on my coast and when I dont have too much stuff going on I plan to start attacking North Africa. Then it will just be expanding my colonies, defending my Vassals and wait until the cool events happen.

Sorry for the long posts and forgive my crappy English

[beckyolt]

1- Northern italy and HRE

2- It's freakin hard to make vassals in M2TW. easier to destroy


3- Spain and Scotland. Historically french also deployed huge numbers of Genoese crossbowmen mercenaries to fight against their english longbowmen counterparts.

I like to make Caen, that castle in eastern france and Toulose my main military settlements because they offer protection against the main threats. Italians, HRE and England.

Hey, before you start your campaign... actually, don't start it. Download the mod called "Stainless Steel" first. Believe me: It makes the game much better. New factions, MAANY new units and mercenaries, many new looks for units ( the units in vanilla look too much like each other ) and several new features. In the gamplay, it's the same as vanilla's. Download it! Much better than vanilla.

[Phil-12-12]

Hey, before you start your campaign... actually, don't start it. Download the mod called "Stainless Steel" first. Believe me: It makes the game much better. New factions, MAANY new units and mercenaries, many new looks for units ( the units in vanilla look too much like each other ) and several new features. In the gamplay, it's the same as vanilla's. Download it! Much better than vanilla.

[windsupernova]

I already have SS downloaded but I am not that familiar with Medieval 2 mechanics. I'll give this campaign a try on simultaneously does SS has mongols and all those events? Thanks

[shikaka]

1.- What would be the most "realistic" regions that France would have interests in

I think modern day France (Caen is english at start), plus maybe the lowlands.
Then, the Holy land (Damascus, Jerusalem, etc.)
Then, the Lowlands (Brussels, Antwerp)

2.- I know that to make someone your Vassal you need to cripple them economically and be stronger than then. I suppose that if I get them down to 1 Region and offer them vassalage and their starting regions they could accept one thing I want to know is if my Vassals(Who will probably be HRE, Spain and maybe Milan) will rebel if the grow too strong.

The best chance you have is when you have a good reputation (get allies - below), and wait for them to ask for a ceasfire! Your counteroffer should include the vassal option. It will still not work in every time, sometimes the AI just decides to die then to become a vassal.

3.-As for alliances,historically which ones would make most sense? I think Spain and Scotland?

Historically Scotland is certain, and also the Pope.

You should also ally your future enemies neighbours.
so a neighbour of HRE: either Poland or Hungary
and either Spain or Portugal (the enemies of Moors and each other).
You can keep all 4 allies happy with presents (100 gold per turn if you can afford it)

But don't ally Poland and Hungary, or Portugal and Spain in the same time. When they turn against each other (neighbours will do that), you will be forced to betray one of them, which is a hit to your reputation.

-Tolouse will remain a Castle, I will do most of my recruiting here, hopefully I can get a swordmasters Guild here.
-Paris will be my religious center, great cathedral and all my priests will come from here.is Paris a really good city for that? Or should I make it a more commerce based one?
-I plan to make marseille my commercial centre, I want to get a Merchants HQ there. Paris could probably take its place but i am not sure enough
-As for City Castle conversion, I think on keeping Tolouse and Bern ans Castles but I think that leaves my north border with the HRE too vulnerable.What do you guys think?
- And Lastly I just can't seem to find any good place to develop to get Spy\Assasins Guild. It feels wrong to have those guilds in a Rich Coastal Region so maybe I could develop those in Metz and Djon? as they both are landlocked? or should I develop them in one of my colonies?

It makes sense to keep all coastal settlements as cities, and 1-2 inland cities (or the poorer coastal ones) should be turned into castles. 1 castle per 5 city is a good general setup.
As for northern castle: take Caen from the english and keep it as an already developed castle.

I think that the guilds don't matter that much, but put the thieves guild in a poor city.
Also, I would keep either the merchant HQ or the theologist HQ to be set up in the Holy land. That way you don't have to ship the quality priests over to convert, or the merchants to use the holy land resources.

I expect to take all rebel settlements surrounding me, that includes bern, Metz and Antwerp.

First, take Marseille, or Milan will take it very soon.

Sorry for the long posts and forgive my crappy English

hehe, I don't think there is a single mistake


edit: as for Stainless Steel, I think Chivalry II is better.

[SonOfThunder]

Read this thread for some good tips on getting(and keeping!!) vassals. It's tough, but manageable. Keeping your reputation high certainly helps, as well!!

[windsupernova]

Thanks, I decided to reroll on SS after all my neighbours decided to backstab me at the most incovienent time. I beat them all quite quickly but I noticed that they still stack spam and attack in places that make no sense.Does SS has this problem?

[Hans Marks]

Yes,i will sound like an idiot - What the hell is this vanilla?I read that everywhere and still have no clue...

[Entropy Judge]

Yes,i will sound like an idiot - What the hell is this vanilla?I read that everywhere and still have no clue...

Vanilla is the basic game - the Grand Campaign. No Retrofit Mod, no Kingdoms campaigns, just the Med2 game with no bells or whistles. Called Vanilla because it's the 'bland' version, just like Vanilla ice-cream is the 'bland' version of ice-cream.

[rebelyell2006]

To answer your questions:
1. Go for Italy and the lowlands. You need to knock out the Italians, as they are powerful. Don't worry so much about the HRE, if they hold everything west of Metz then you have a good defensible position with those river crossings until you are powerful and stable enough to knock them out. The same goes for Iberia, take advantage of the mountains. If you have a decent navy, then go for the Mediterranean islands, use them as stepping stones on your way to the Levant.

2. You most likely will not gain vassals unless you have plenty of money to gift away, but if you ever have a vassal that state will become too weak to be a threat. It would be akin to neutering the state.

3. I'd recommend allying with the Moors (as a counterbalance to the Iberian Catholics) and the Pope (as a counterbalance to the Italians, and useful allies when you eventually invade Italy). Go for Scotland if you have enough money to give regular gifts, otherwise they become too weak for any use. Or else go with the Danes, as they will eventually fight the HRE.

I'd recommend keeping the border settlements (Toulouse, Bordeaux) as castles, along with Angers. The rest should be cities, as even during wars the northern port cities will be highly profitable. If the settlement has a port, then go with cities, the rest can be castles. If Angers is a castle, and you keep your roads swept of Brigands (using Parisian militia), then your decent soldiers can move quickly to Dijon and Rheims should you fight the HRE. If you are fighting offensively against the HRE, then you can just ignore all of that, since France and Southern/Northern Germany essentially use the same mercenaries and mercenaries tend to be superior to the HRE basic infantry, and that is what you will be facing from the castles of Metz and Hohenstaufen.

[shikaka]

2. You most likely will not gain vassals unless you have plenty of money to gift away, but if you ever have a vassal that state will become too weak to be a threat. It would be akin to neutering the state.

When it is them who ask for a ceasfire first, you have a good chance to get them accept a vassalization proposal, even without any gifts.

Also, they are very good to dump useless settlements at them, as your vassal's land still count towards your goal of X provinces for campaign victory!

3. I'd recommend allying with the Moors (as a counterbalance to the Iberian Catholics) and the Pope (as a counterbalance to the Italians, and useful allies when you eventually invade Italy). Go for Scotland if you have enough money to give regular gifts, otherwise they become too weak for any use. Or else go with the Danes, as they will eventually fight the HRE.

As a catholic, it is a very bad idea to ally a muslim.
The pope will give you a quest to cancel alliance, or simply call a crusade on them, and you have to betray your ally, which is bad for relation.

Denmark is a good ally against HRE, but I prefer Poland or Hungary (Denmark might want to attack Scotland, where you have to side with one of them, Poland will never do that)

[13lackGu4rd]

historically the Pope loved to call the French to beat down the Italian city states, whenever 1 of the Italian city states grew too strong for the Pope's liking he sent for the big Christian neighbors(France, Spain, HRE) to enter Italy and lay some smack to whichever city state is causing the Pope trouble. so having constant battles with Milan, Venice and to some extent Sicily will make sense, as long as you don't completely destroy them that is.

[rebelyell2006]

You don't have to join crusades or follow the pope's missions.

[FootSoldier]

I love this post

With one sentence France has started wars with Denmark, Milan, the HRE, Spain and Portugal - not to mention that England will always pop up.

I expect to take all rebel settlements surrounding me, that includes bern, Metz and Antwerp.

A France that expands into all the surrounding rebel territories becomes the early superpower, and all adjoining factions will combine to hold her back. Most of the history of Western Europe is based on this from Charlemagne to Napoleon. Historically this combo was typically Spain, England and parts of the HRE.

The simple truth is that all the surrounding rebel territories are wanted by another faction. Regardless of alliances:

Antwerp = war with the Danes, and maybe the HRE
Dijon = war with Milan and the HRE
Metz = war with the HRE
Bordeaux = war with Portugal
Rennes = war with England
Bruges = war with England
Bern = war with Milan
Zaragoza = war with Spain
Milan = war with Venice
Genoa = war with Sicily (probably)
Ajaccio = war with Milan, possibly Sicily
Cagliari = war with Sicily, and maybe the Moors, Milan, and the Byzantines if taken very early
Tunis = war with Sicily and the Moors

If France takes them all quickly she will be fighting with every faction that surrounds her quickly.

The question for France is who to fight first, and this is determined by the order of rebel territories taken. War with England and Milan is all but inevitable. Milan will attack sooner rather than later once Dijon is taken, and it will be a long and costly war. If Milan takes Dijon then it will go after Marseilles, then Rheims and Paris. If France beats Milan then the HRE will pile in.

One good way of expanding is to buy Caen from England, then take Rennes and Bruges. Leave Antwerp to the Danes - maybe ally with them. Take Bordeaux, and be prepared for an inevitable Portuguese incursion. Yes, they do mean business. Take Dijon and have that long war with Milan. Expect England to invade, probably going after Rennes.

France actually needs to expand carefully, and aware of the consequences of each conquest.

As allies, the Scots are a good historical fit, unless France invades England. Spain is a bad fit.

For a France wanting to fight Muslims the best allies are the far away ones - Poland, Russia and either Hungary or the Byzantines but not both (they will fight over Sofia and Constantinople).

Personally I like vanilla, and would recommend doing it first. The alliance difficulties are overdone, and take a long time to figure out, but I find it historically truer than the mods.

Tolouse will remain a Castle, I will do most of my recruiting here, hopefully I can get a swordmasters Guild here.

You can get a swordsmith's guild in any castle if:
- you train lots of swordsmen (DFK's, Dismounted Latikon, Dis Christian Guard etc.)
- you build the armourer's buildings

Early in the game you can get swordsmiths at fortress level with an armourer and reasonable training rates. Late in the game you will need to build the Master Armourer and train up to 12 (possibly 15) swordsmen.

I have also got a swordsmith's guild in Constantinople by training lots of Byz infantry as the Byz, and interestingly, JHI as the Turks. That's the only city where I've got one, but will try to get it in Cordoba when I play Spain. It's a matter of holding out until it comes along.

[windsupernova]

Thanks footsoldier, I tried SS 6.4 but it was kinda overwhelming to me(maybe after I finish this campaign)and they put as victory condition to eliminate factions and I don't like that.

I'll prob reroll because now I am at war with everybody, I will follow your suggestions and be less aggressive with my expansion.