Yari Ashigaru vs. Matchlock Ashigaru

[kommandant]

In your opinion which one is better overall with your own tactics?

in my campaign as the Chosokabe Clan, the Yari Ashigaru were the bulk of my armies,
they were the front line men with the Naginata Samurai(only two or three of these) as
their support and flank protectors with about 4 units of Bow Ashigaru in front harassing
both the enemies' melee and ranged units and then retracted behind the Yari Ashigaru to
continue firing their bows.

now that i have unlocked the Matchlock Ashigaru they have effectively replaced my Yari
Ashigaru as my main battles units, nothing else has changed, granted i know this is against
the AI and that is why this mainly works but it has paid off pretty good for me, they get far
more kills than my Yari Ashigaru although if i don't pay attention to the enemies' movements i
tend to look a lot due to hand to hand combat

what are your opinions on the topic on hand

also i'm playing on H/H if that matters to you

[Xelathur]

Matchlock Ashigaru is good and cheap frontline units, but you need to watch out since they can't do anything in melee. Matchlock Samurai is my favourite since they can handle melee quite well, although the "bang per buck" you recieve out of them are far less than ordinary Matchlocks. ( Just restock after each batttle with fresh guns )

I use half of my Mathlocks as frontline units and the second half as flankers, works a treat. However, I cannot use them effectively without cannons as backup.

Got any tactics that requires Matchlocks?

[Beowulf1990]

When I do go for gunpowder I prefer to use a line of Yari Ashigaru and Samurai to hold the enemy infantry and use the matchlocks to swing around the flank and break them. Using Yari cavalry to hold of enemy cavalry and to hunt archers. Works very quickly!

[Xelathur]

When I do go for gunpowder I prefer to use a line of Yari Ashigaru and Samurai to hold the enemy infantry and use the matchlocks to swing around the flank and break them. Using Yari cavalry to hold of enemy cavalry and to hunt archers. Works very quickly!

A full frontal charge with Katana Samurai and using Matchlocks at the flanks would be a great morale-blitz

You haven't tried to use the Matchlocks as the main battle unit, holding the line?

Once I've researched matchlocks, I just make overnight armies in castles out of yari ashigaru + matchlock ashigaru, you can abuse the autoresolve with pure numbers in these cases..

Xelathur uses Counterspell against Auto-Resolve. Auto-Resolve is put to the GY.

[Beowulf1990]

You haven't tried to use the Matchlocks as the main battle unit, holding the line?

I have, seems to me to be far too vulnerable. Get the timing wrong and you either minimise the damage you do or you lose the matchlocks in a melee. The way I do it I only need worry about the enemy flanking my flanks, which I solve by flanking the flank that's trying to flank my flank with cavalry. Simple.

[Thefallenhun]

Once I've researched matchlocks, I just make overnight armies in castles out of yari ashigaru + matchlock ashigaru, you can abuse the autoresolve with pure numbers in these cases..

[Thefallenhun]

Everyone's a comedian aren't they? Autoresolve doesn't go on the stack, everyone knows that.

[Dodge]

I'll kill them all regardless of what weapon they hold in their hands; whether it be a pike or firearm they will die.

[TotalWarker]

I'll kill them all regardless of what weapon they hold in their hands; whether it be a pike or firearm they will die.

This made me giggle

[dzaric]

Ill go with matchloks, but only in a sense of being fitted in a good and somewhat balanced army. In all honesty, you really cant compare them. As individual units they are very diffrent, but their funcionality depends upon what the rest of your army looks like.

[Wismer]

Sometimes when facing against heavy infantry, I would use ashigaru in front of the matchlock units. When the ashigaru start to route, I turn the matchlock units on with rank fire. I only engage with my own heavy infantry when the enemy gets too close to the matchlocks or to deter cavalry.

It may not be the best method, but certainly makes the battles feel more cinematic as you get to see the musketmen fire more rounds off. Plus, putting a line of troops in front of the matchlocks discourages enemy archers from targeting the gunners.

I am using the total realism mod, by the way. Samurai units in this are tenaciously tough bastards but a good ol' bullet stops em short. VERY cost effective.

[Xelathur]

In my Shimazu-campaign, I got one Nanban Quarter and a Nanban Tradeport. I think Matchlock Ashigaru should take 1 turn to train, instead of two ( converted to Christianity ) to really lift up the "spammable" nature of the teppu troops.

My main army is now 50% Matchlock ashigaru, 4 european cannons, some Yari Cavalry and Naginata Samurai. I suffer heavy casualties if I use conventional firearms tactics ala ETW/NTW, so I usually just lure the enemy army to charge head on to my Naginata Samurai and flank with the Matchlocks. European cannons really pulverize the enemy army and feels kinda unfair, taking out their generals in the first volley is a bit too much. The morale penalty from this + massed volleys from the flanks even makes samurai rout ( The AI doesn't use Banzai atleast what I am aware of ).

Everyone's a comedian aren't they? Autoresolve doesn't go on the stack, everyone knows that.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Can I get cannot without converting ? I allowed on on my ports for Nanban trade (as Chosokabe) but also build a temple in the province after christians revolt. I can only recruit teppu inits only (for 5 tuns per unit if I'm not mistaken).

[Xelathur]

Can I get cannot without converting ? I allowed on on my ports for Nanban trade (as Chosokabe) but also build a temple in the province after christians revolt. I can only recruit teppu inits only (for 5 tuns per unit if I'm not mistaken).

Sadly, you need to convert. They should be for sale without forcing the conversion unto the player. Just for a higher price.. The southern barbarians wouldn't really care

[Gulatr]

Can I get cannot without converting ? I allowed on on my ports for Nanban trade (as Chosokabe) but also build a temple in the province after christians revolt. I can only recruit teppu inits only (for 5 tuns per unit if I'm not mistaken).

Only way you get cannons is by converting your religion. As a Buddhist you can capture a Nan-ban Quarter and produce Imported Matchlock Ashtray and even Nan-ban Trade Ships, but Cannons are locked, and there is the Christian icon on their image in the building detail.

Between Matchlock and Yarii Ashigaru I would choose the Yari armed Ashigaru, none of my armies can do without them, they are very cost effective and easy to produce in large numbers. They are inferior to Samurai melee troops, but it's not their job to win a 1 vs 1 with a Samurai unit, they hold the line very well, especially in spear wall and kill cavalry with ease.

Matchlocks have a different role altogether, they are a very powerful ranged units, can kill and demoralize at range, but they are not as important in my armies as the Yari Ashigaru.

[Humble Warrior]

Only way you get cannons is by converting your religion. .

Or by capturing them off the enemy. I have 2 sets from doing that and have no cannon making ability at all!

[Selahedîn]

Well, I don't know if my opinion is valid, since I play with both units modded, but Ashigaru usually form the bulk of my armies (at least 80 to 90% of all forces). In fact, the only Samurai I normally use are Light, Yari Cavalry and Bow Cavalry - I may throw in the odd Yari Samurai unit into the mix, every now and then, but that's pretty much it.

Now, as to which unit is more important, I would have to say the Matchlock Ashigaru. They are simply devastating when used right. So much so, in fact, that I usually "rush" gunpowder mastery in every single one of my campaigns.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Nvm then. I'm kind sick of cannons anyway after Empire.. Maybe I'll consider converting when playing Shimazu (or did they start Christians ?).

I have a standing army in my main island though but except the first rebellion the Christians now are quite docile. Only been playing the game not more than 10 hours. Still got more to explore.

[Shimazu Dufresne]

The best way to use matchlock ashigaru is coupled with yari samurai though i think yari ashigaru would work just as well. Basically have an army of your general with 10 yaris either peasants or samurai and 9 matchlocks this army may work well on attack but is best for defense and simply alternate their placement make to put yari on the outer left and right flanks and simply alternate yari matchlock until u reach the center and place the general in the middle behind the battle line! Try and make sure the matchlocks are only 3 ranks deep while keeping the yari in more of a square formation this keeps the battle line from becoming too large. The matchlock now have overlapping fields of fire and wen set to fire by rank and skirmish can easily run away wen enemy troops approach and allow the yari to engage the enemy units. When the melee is finally engaged the enemy will be demoralized by the 1st volleys offering an easy win to your army! This army and tactic has worked very well but try and use it only for field battles. Sieges against large defending armies is not recommended

[lsm]

if i can get matchlock to pull back before being crushed, and then circle around, it's almost a guaranteed win.

don't think i'd ever even try to use them as a hold the front line group. unless maybe i have two lines of matchlocks, first to shoot incoming charge and die in melee, then the second behind the first line that just shoots everyone? they'd need to be well upgraded, +2 armor from encampment, trained at a castle with upgraded pilgrim hostel, led by an ashigaru general and using stand and fight to boot. might as well make them the oda variant too. maybe that would work