Why isn't Poland a powerful nation?

[Col. Tartleton]

They still haven't figured out how to screw in that first light bulb...?

[SonOfOdin]

Before that time it was Austrian, Bohemian and Polish territory. And the longest rule was Bohemian, not German one.

Just to be fair, the Kingdom of Bohemia was a part of the Holy Roman Empire at that time so...

[intel]

Just to be fair, the Kingdom of Bohemia was a part of the Holy Roman Empire at that time so...

...so your point remains invalid

[Their Law]

Just to be fair, the Kingdom of Bohemia was a part of the Holy Roman Empire at that time so...

So was Milan, Savoy, Tuscany, Switzerland, Netherlands, Provenance, Slovenia, Belgium, Pisa, Siena, Modena, Mantua and Burgundy.

The Holy Roman Empire is not the precursor to Germany. It's a significant part of it's history but it's not it's predecessor.

[Yosemite]

look, some countries are meant to be great, others are meant to be assimilated and fed on, for example bohemia. where the heck is that, y'hear ppl ask.
or burgundy.
those places dont exist anymore.
poland is one of those places and it's only due to the fact that germany and russia couldnt compromise that poland still exists

haters gonna hate

[Plan C]

look, some countries are meant to be great, others are meant to be assimilated and fed on, for example bohemia...

... or Tibet.

[Exarch]

exactly...

[Lord Zhang Ku]

exactly...

You do know Bohemia is now the Czech Republic right? Saying a country shouldn't exist just because it has powerful neighbors is a tad worrisome. It is true that some countries rise and fall, but ethnic divides still exist. The Poles have retained their culture, despite attempts to assimilate them. For that we should tip our hat off to them.

[Exarch]

You do know Bohemia is now the Czech Republic right? Saying a country shouldn't exist just because it has powerful neighbors is a tad worrisome. It is true that some countries rise and fall, but ethnic divides still exist. The Poles have retained their culture, despite attempts to assimilate them. For that we should tip our hat off to them.

stubborner and braver people have been assimilated; i speak of course of the saxons of charlemagne's era and of the pechenegs who were scattered by the might of Byzantium.
when i compare the world map of my HRE campaign and real life political maps of yurop, i remain incensed that this, this is what's become of my mighty empire. no, no, no, i tell myself. this is not real, is this what my knights and i bled for? what my brave serjeants died for?...i stagger around the room and grab the nearest bottle of wine. i scull it fast. i open another one...and another... for that shock, it cost me half my prized wine collection.

now if you must ask why poland isn't a powerful nation, it is because they never accepted the overlordship of the German Empire, never spoke german, or accepted lutheranism or done any of those things which would've assured poles that they belonged to a worthier and powerful nation.
then perhaps, marie curie and copernicus could've continued their work under the banner of the Holy Roman Empire!!!

[Lord Zhang Ku]

stubborner and braver people have been assimilated; i speak of course of the saxons of charlemagne's era and of the pechenegs who were scattered by the might of Byzantium.
when i compare the world map of my HRE campaign and real life political maps of yurop, i remain incensed that this, this is what's become of my mighty empire. no, no, no, i tell myself. this is not real, is this what my knights and i bled for? what my brave serjeants died for?...i stagger around the room and grab the nearest bottle of wine. i scull it fast. i open another one...and another... for that shock, it cost me half my prized wine collection.

now if you must ask why poland isn't a powerful nation, it is because they never accepted the overlordship of the German Empire, never spoke german, or accepted lutheranism or done any of those things which would've assured poles that they belonged to a worthier and powerful nation.
then perhaps, marie curie and copernicus could've continued their work under the banner of the Holy Roman Empire!!!

So what you are saying is that all people should become homegenous within the country they are apart of? That's kind of racist. Poland was a power at one point, and threw it's weight around many times, at one point being the strongest nation in all of Europe. Nations rise and fall, but some don't fade away. Would you have the jews assimilate into their communities after the fall of Israel? would you deny the rights of the Roma to live how they do? Would you tell the greeks they should of started speaking Turkish only when the Ottomans took over Greece? What you say seems to be that some culture, once conquered, are inferior. That's just... sad.

[Exarch]

So what you are saying is that all people should become homegenous within the country they are apart of? That's kind of racist. Poland was a power at one point, and threw it's weight around many times, at one point being the strongest nation in all of Europe. Nations rise and fall, but some don't fade away. Would you have the jews assimilate into their communities after the fall of Israel? would you deny the rights of the Roma to live how they do? Would you tell the greeks they should of started speaking Turkish only when the Ottomans took over Greece? What you say seems to be that some culture, once conquered, are inferior. That's just... sad.

no, people can retain their culture within other cultures; the many Chinatowns in 'the west' is evidence of that, but the lingua franca remains english-or what the indigeneous peoples speak: french, german, spanish etc. i make no comments on cultural 'homogeneity', simply on territorial rights and germany's territorial rights extend as far as the vistula river and one province beyond.
besides, poland the nation state sits on prussia, land that is effectively german land.

think of it like this, the confederated states were never meant to exist, so they were conquered by the north.
it is only by the luckiest accident and incompetance by HRE and tsarist greed that poland still remains and retains its cultural identity whereas the saxons of charlemagne's era were assimilated, and whereas the pechenegs were destroyed.
besides, most poles look similar to germans, blonde hair and high sex appeal. i consider it a shame that the kaiser and my men are no longer able to enjoy the fruits of polish womanhood.

[Lord Zhang Ku]

no, people can retain their culture within other cultures; the many Chinatowns in 'the west' is evidence of that, but the lingua franca remains english-or what the indigeneous peoples speak: french, german, spanish etc. i make no comments on cultural 'homogeneity', simply on territorial rights and germany's territorial rights extend as far as the vistula river and one province beyond.
besides, poland the nation state sits on prussia, land that is effectively german land.

think of it like this, the confederated states were never meant to exist, so they were conquered by the north.
it is only by the luckiest accident and incompetance by HRE and tsarist greed that poland still remains and retains its cultural identity whereas the saxons of charlemagne's era were assimilated, and whereas the pechenegs were destroyed.
besides, most poles look similar to germans, blonde hair and high sex appeal. i consider it a shame that the kaiser and my men are no longer able to enjoy the fruits of polish womanhood.

The Poles probably look more similar to Russians due to both cultures' Slavic roots. By the way, what...game are you refering to? Medieval II: Total War?, Europa Universalis?

[Exarch]

The Poles probably look more similar to Russians due to both cultures' Slavic roots. By the way, what...game are you refering to? Medieval II: Total War?, Europa Universalis?

M2:TW

most poles i know tend to be blondes, with green or blue eyes. i don't know if that's what a 'slavic' is supposed to look like since most russians i know tend to have blonde hair as well.

[Mangalore]

Cause is not quite the same thing as an aggressor. 1914 Germany was a violently expansionist state organised on military lines, with no practical civilian oversight of the military or executive. The goals of 1914 Germany were aggressive - it saw them annex a huge swathe of Eastern Europe upon the defeat of Russia.

Uhm, they didn't even have those goals in 1914. Those goals developed as it became clear that instead of a fast, limited war this would became a nation struggle for supremacy by all involved parties. When the stakes grow, the wanted profit usually does, too.
Germany and Prussia between the Napoleonic Wars and ww1 did not really wage more wars han other countries, did not expend more on her military than other countries, did not bully others more than other countries... which is a sad statement because it is indicative of the level other Great Powers did fight, bully and expand their military, too.

The only thing true here is that Imperial Germany was a hybrid state of authocratic monarchism like Russia or Austria and western democracy like France and Great Britain... That said in 1914 even the socialdemocrats passed the war acts so even the usually government critical parties were accepting it. And peace loving democracies like France were still out for blood.

That the Kaiser's foreign policy was a disaster in the making is however as obvious as Austrian desperation, Russian ambition, France's revanchism and actually Great Britain's failure in its foreign policy around the time because Britain didn't really have much to win from that war other than the stop of the ludicrous naval race she was already winning as germany had to consider her more vital strategic situation.

The whole reason ww1 turned into such a cluster was because Germany had no aggressive goals of expansionism planned out but was going on decade old defense ideas on how one might pull himself out of trouble when facing France and Russia at the same time. In 1914 Germany's military readiness was actually quite low in comparison to just years ago because of army reforms and as such a pretty anticyclic time to intentionally start a war against major players.
And Prussian aristocrats not quite 50 years ago developed more of a knack to start specific, limited wars when they were very ready and the opposing side just in a similar situation of pushing through reorganizations of their armed forces.


Anyhow Germany in 1914 was stupid, not actually aggressive because there were no plans on how to be aggressive aka actually secure any viable goals: Defeat France fast and hope you can then wittle down Russia so the sue for peace is not a very definite plan to get hold of Courland...

[Excellion]

Lech Walesa said once in an interview in 1991, about building communism from a capitalist society being simple: "It's like doing a fish soup from an aquarium. Just heat the water. It doesn't even need to spice. The herbs are already within there." And concluded: "Building capitalism from a communist society is a bit more complicated...it's like making an aquarium from a fish soup..."

So here's your answer...

[Col. Tartleton]

Isn't all of Europe technically Germany based on their previous claims...?

I'm not even counting the Nazi goal of world subjugation, just the Empire in general.

Frankly I kind of think I think Germany should have been given to Poland. Poland is the oft forgotten fourth member of the big 3 in WW2. Russia, Britain, America, and Poland and Poland ended up the most screwed.

Instead of giving Polish lands back to Germany, dissolve the Bundesrepublik and call the whole amalgamation Rzeczpospolita. They can have Austria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Czech, and Ukraine too. While that's a combined total of about 200 million people and a good chunk of the world's land and money, because it's Poland I'm not afraid of any negative consequences.

[SonOfOdin]

So was Milan, Savoy, Tuscany, Switzerland, Netherlands, Provenance, Slovenia, Belgium, Pisa, Siena, Modena, Mantua and Burgundy.

The Holy Roman Empire is not the precursor to Germany. It's a significant part of it's history but it's not it's predecessor.

The Holy Roman Empire was the closest to Germany you had at the time.

First Reich - Holy Roman Empire
Second Reich - German Empire of 1871–1918
Third Reich - Nazi ruled Germany.

Germany wasn't the Holy Roman Empire, but the Holy Roman Empire was German.

And I like to think of it like this : the "outer" territories you mentioned, are well, the "outer territories", they're not German by a long shot. But Bohemia was an important HRE kingdom. Prague was one of the great cities of the HRE. I wouldn't place the Kingdom of Bohemia on the same level as the regions you mentioned.

[Their Law]

The Holy Roman Empire was the closest to Germany you had at the time.

Well no it wasn't as Germany didn't exist, at the time there was no Germany, only a collection of feudal states under a elective arbiter.

First Reich - Holy Roman Empire
Second Reich - German Empire of 1871–1918
Third Reich - Nazi ruled Germany.

Germany wasn't the Holy Roman Empire, but the Holy Roman Empire was German.

and Lombard, Swiss, Dutch, Czech, Walloon, Flemish, Burgundian, and Occitain, the Holy Roman Empire was not a state defined on nationality, it's a mistake to assume so.

And I like to think of it like this : the "outer" territories you mentioned, are well, the "outer territories", they're not German by a long shot. But Bohemia was an important HRE kingdom. Prague was one of the great cities of the HRE. I wouldn't place the Kingdom of Bohemia on the same level as the regions you mentioned.

All territorial claims that Germany MAY of had to German confederation territories such as Bohemia were nullified when Prussia opted for Lesser Germany over Greater Germany. In excluding Austria from Germany it forfeited it's claims to Austrian territory, which at the time includes Bohemia.

[SonOfOdin]

Well no it wasn't as Germany didn't exist, at the time there was no Germany, only a collection of feudal states under a elective arbiter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany

and Lombard, Swiss, Dutch, Czech, Walloon, Flemish, Burgundian, and Occitain, the Holy Roman Empire was not a state defined on nationality, it's a mistake to assume so.

They were ethnic minorities for the Emperor. For example : The Austrian Empire in the 1800's was mostly Hungarian/Balkan/Italian, but it was still the AUSTRIAN Empire.

All territorial claims that Germany MAY of had to German confederation territories such as Bohemia were nullified when Prussia opted for Lesser Germany over Greater Germany. In excluding Austria from Germany it forfeited it's claims to Austrian territory, which at the time includes Bohemia.

It would be funny imagining Croatia or Venice under Germany. In the time when the Frankfurt parliament discussed the future of Germany in 1848 to unite all German SPEAKING territories, it was either :

A German country under Austria with Austrian territories
A German country under Austria but without Austrian territories
A German country under Prussia.

Eventually the Parliament failed and was dissolved and Germany would become a Germany under Prussia, excluding Austria and it's German lands completely.

But anyway back to topic.

[Their Law]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany

One of the predecessors to the Holy Roman Empire, during a time when France was still Frank and not French. Still does not refute my point, there was NO Germany.

They were ethnic minorities for the Emperor. For example : The Austrian Empire in the 1800's was mostly Hungarian/Balkan/Italian, but it was still the AUSTRIAN Empire.

Actually before 1804 it was simply the Habsburg Monarchy and it's holdings, even then the title Emperor of the Austrians was not a nationalistic statement of the state rather a prestige based response to the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire and Napoleon's claim of Emperor of France. It's telling that the first truly nationalist based state in Habsburg territories was called Austria - Hungary.

It would be funny imagining Croatia or Venice under Germany. In the time when the Frankfurt parliament discussed the future of Germany in 1848 to unite all German SPEAKING territories, it was either :

A German country under Austria with Austrian territories
A German country under Austria but without Austrian territories
A German country under Prussia.

Eventually the Parliament failed and was dissolved and Germany would become a Germany under Prussia, excluding Austria and it's German lands completely.

My point still stands, Germany has no claim on Holy Roman Empire territories or Imperial Austrian territories due to the dissolution of the Empire by Austria and in Prussia's refusal to include Austria within Germany. It has no claim to Pommernia, Silesia or East Prussia due to the events of WWII as it surrendered unconditionally and was dissolved as a state.