Building suggestions (comments, etc)

[The Sloth]

Suggestions and comments about everything are very much encouraged, so feel free to share.

I'll just quote this instead of asking for permission again. This time, it's about buildings. I know you probably did some brainstorming about them youselves, and they involve more than just text editing, but anyway.
I've liked the city developpment buildings of FATW, mostly because the cattle breeders were all that kept me alive during my rhun campaigns. But that's precisely the problem. These buildings are currently very badly balanced, at least from what I've seen. I mean: Should I make a whooping 1000+ more cash per turn with my cattle breeder, or should I skip that in order to recruit weak settler wains? And I'm not talking about that +40% bonus to public order you get just by building the base building. OK, I just did.

Anyway, here are some suggestions for new city developpment buildings.

Stonemason's Workshops (all non-barbarians)
effects: small discount on building costs (as far as I know, this bonus works, but isn't shown in the building's effects description), allows stone walls to be build (admit it, this is still better than making gold/silver mines a prerequisite for better walls)
Great cities have great requirements, and their inhabitants appreciate when these are met. When there are so many houses to be built and maintained, there has to be a sufficient number of craftsmen with the skills for such a job. Their workshops are the place to go for everyone who has dreams or concerns about anything somehow related to stone, and if given the right financial support, they will even be able to perform construction tasks that would normally not be reasonably feasible.

Rural Settlements (all barbarians)
effects: +farming, +trade, +health, -law, -population growth
short description: Ours is a freedom-loving people, and they are reluctant to live pent-up like cattle, or like the stone-dwellers of other lands. Thus, their cities are considerably smaller, usually centered around the court of some important lord, while most people live in smaller farms and villages in the surrounding lands. This allows them to exploit their homeland much better, and is much more healthy than living in the filth of many thousands of people. It also suits their independant nature better, when there is room to come and leave as they wish. Although it is true that such freedom should only be granted to people that can be trusted, as free people are harder to keep in check than the man-cattle living in cities.

Master Weaponsmith / Armory (all barbarians / dwarves)
effects: better weapon upgrades
short description:
1) Particularly skilled craftsmen exist everywhere, but they are often a reclusive kind, and reluctant to grant their help to a great number of people. Only a persuasive chieftain will bring them to equip his men with the best weapons there are, made from the best iron ore and forged with secret techniques handed down and improved on by generations of weaponsmiths. The items they create will often find their way into the songs and tales of their people, and rumor has it they sometimes pocess strange properties and effects, that surpass everything a shaped lump of metal should normally be capable of.
2) The world is ever-changing, and that is not always a good thing. Much has been lost over the years, such as many secrects of the dwarven blacksmiths. Many masters of their craft were killed or died without passing on their knowledge. While the present generation struggles to restore the glory of their forefathers, the old armories of dwarven strongholds still hold enough of the old masterpieces to equipp entire contingents of troops. Carefullness is at order, however, for every such weapon that is lost in battle might never be able to be replaced.

And here's another suggestion of mine: epic city developpment. I know Tolkiens works mostly tell a tale of general decay, and I never really liked that. There was a passage in LotR that moved me quite a bit. It was before the counsil of Elrond, when Gimli(?) and Frodo had a talk about how things were going in Erebor. Gimli then lengthily described how they tried to restore the knowledge and skill of the previous generation, and how they succeeded in certain areas. For me, this is a sign that the decay of Middle-Earth isn't a necessity. And since this is the age of men, it is also men's duty to preserve the beauty and mystery of their world, and to find new things to add to it. This is the idea behind these buildings. Think of them as city developpment on crack.

Walls of Old (RK, Adunabar, Harad(?))
effect: allows large stone walls to be built (requires stone walls)
Once upon a time, men built monuments meant to surpass time, to witness the changes of the world. They built walls of black or white stones, stones that no siege engine could overcome. Building anything that even remotely comes close to such fortifications will require many years, much effort from countless workers and craftsmen, and summs of money that would defy the imagination of an immortal elf. Even then, success is not assured. But much has to be risked if men are to claim this age as their own, and no reward will come to those who rest one the laurels of their ancestors.

Battlefield Memorial (all)
effect: +law, +experience (+morale doesn't work, from what I have heard)
The world's history is a bloody one. Countless bodies from all kinds of people lay rotting in all corners of all lands. Who can even remember who they were, and what they fought for? And if noone can remember, what did they even die for?
This is why this memorial was built, so that the spilt blood will not be forgotten, so that children learn that in such a place, men fought, killed and died for what they believed in. So that all see the worth of those who were, and the worth of those who are yet to come.
This is no monument to prove the skilled hands or glory of a people, but their strength of heart and their convictions.

More buildings to follow once I get some rest

[Aradan]

Agreed, the DBs were not well balanced. And I generally wasn't that happy about the TNS tech tree. DoM is much improved.


As for these specific suggestions, I don't think we can implement those (not dead certain of course), half of them because we have already addressed the problem they are meant to address in some other way and the other half because it's impossible/impractical to do so with the way we have restructured the tech trees or for other reasons.

Nonetheless, ideas that are not implemented can still be used to give birth to other (perhaps even seemingly unrelated) ideas, so keep them coming! We do read everything posted and we do pay attention to good feedback and advice on how to improve the mod, even if we don't always go with what is suggested.


EDIT: In fact, would you mind if I split these two posts to anew thread named "building suggestions" or sth similar, so others can pitch in without the subject getting buried?

[The Sloth]

I've been having some computer problems, but now I'm back, and even have some suggestions left. I'll just throw them in in no particular order. Maybe something can be used.

Abandoned Homeland (Rhun; -farming, -trade, -population growth, -happiness, allows recruitment of horde units)
Progress has taken a very unique shape in this region: houses are falling to ruins, and wilderness is claiming what were once fields and roads. Be it because of poor harvests or rumors that the grass is litterally greener elsewhere, the inhabitants have left or are leaving these lands in numbers to look for a new place to call their home.
These settlers may not be experienced warriors, but there's lots of them, and they can take care of themselves. A cunning chieftain in search of new lands to conquer might therefore want to point them into the right direction...

Dephts of the World (dwarves; +mining income)
Only ancient dwarven mines ever reach such dephts that every further passage or gallery becomes a journey into unexplored territoy.
In their search for new, unexploited veins of gems and metals, the miners here reach places that have never seen a spark of light since the world began, places that are a home to beings that don't have a name in any language of Arda.
These Dephts of the World are both a fabulous and dangerous place. The blackest and most tearful chapter of this kind of structure is certainly the awakening of a Balrog of Morgoth by the unsuspecting miners of Khazad-Dum. Although such an event is unlikely to occur again, it is always best to remember that this is not a place where your people are meant to stay.

Treasury (dwarves; +tax income, +happiness (bonuses only for dwarves, but other factions get massive cash for destroying it))
Nothing has ever touched a dwarf's heart more than the glistening of a well-cut gem, the shimmering of refined gold and the harmony of a skillfully crafted work of art that combines all of these. A treasury is where a dwarven king gathers the most unique, beautiful and precious masterpieces of his people, a place that is the pride and joy of all, and that is the glinting proof of their skill and greatness. Unlike the wealth if humans, this place is not meant to boast with, as few outsiders are ever allowed to see it, but for your people to rest their hearts and be awed by its beauty.

Assimilation (all non-elves and non-dwarves; can only be built in certain areas outside a faction's homeland; massive construction time; allows this region to be treated as a homeland province)
This land has been under foreign control for so long that barely anyone still lives who can remember a time when it was not. It's people speak the language of their overlords, wear their clothes, intermarry with them and serve in their armies. The ''foreign'' warlords have long since lowered their guard, for barely anyone here sees any point in fighting the lifestyle they have been born and raised in.
At long least, therefore, the time has come to officially declare what has long-since become a reality: these people are henceforth a part of the people whom they serve, and their fates will be linked forever. Together they will march towards the future, whatever it may bring.

[athanaric]

I really like some of those suggestions. Perhaps for some factions, some kind of colony system could be implemented - although of course it won't be complete given the limitations of the TW engine. Especially for the seafaring ones (RK/Adunabar/Harad). Also, Dwarves would be a great candidate for opening businesses in foreign provinces (perhaps represented by something similar to the colony "buildings" in EB?).

[Stark1]

Assimilation building seems great.

[Nehcrum]

Assimilation building seems great.

But also rather impossible, you can't change the set values assigned to a territory.
What you could do would be to create a building that gives bonuses that makes up for these differences.
Giving access to recruit some higher "core" units not ordinarily accessible in non-homeland provinces, and bonuses to religious conversion and law and order (which you already get from the development building itself).

As for the dwarven treasury, gaining lots of gold from destroying it would be bad. The AI doesn't destroy buildings, so it'll be a boost for the human player only. And if you make it expensive, then it will punish the AI without reason.

And a set bonus to experience for all units recruited in the city seems to go against some of the "philosophy" behind FATW:TNS, might have changed in DoM but I doubt it.

But I really like the rural settlement, depending a bit on how you balance health bonus vs pop growth and law decreases.
It would be cool if you could build these as a kind of "setting" for the city, giving access to varied buildings based on it. Rural settlements focusing more on farming while urban settlement would be more trading. And maybe martial settlement with bonuses to units in some form.
Problem would be how much of a defined bonus they would give in some areas and if you then shouldn't be allowed to destroy these "settings" buildings, to avoid using a good early game setting (like rural) and switch it to martial when it's grown a bit.
But that would limit your options when you conquer another settlement, which already has a settings buildings. But it would be kinda neat to "force" one into certain ways when you take an enemy settlement, and can't reshape it any way you want.

[Aradan]

Good to see we are two steps ahead of our fans' wishes.

An assimilation building wouldn't quite work. Assume you've been building one for 29 turns. And right when it's almost finished, someone takes the settlement and destroys it. And then you retake it the very next turn. Can you come up with a reasonable excuse why 29 turns of assimilating to your culture have gone to hell and you need to start all over? In reality, you'd be able to pick up right here you left, as 6 months under foreign occupation wouldn't negate all the years under your control.
An assimilation building was the first thing I proposed to be added to the mod back when I first played FE... Good times.

AI doesn't destroy buildings in other mods, sure.

[The Sloth]

I have a feeling I'm writing this for nothing, since it would probably be a major alteration of the current system, but whatever.

I've been doing some thinking about assimilation (would be nice if it would work), barracks (the n°1 generic building in all versions of RTW) and culture (see our discussion in the Ask your Questions thread). And here's a suggestion for a sort of Assimilation building tree. It determines the degree of control you have on a given settlement, and therefore the strength of your culture in said settlement, as well as the units and buildings you can build. The buildings are undestructible, by the way.

level 1: Martial Law
I won't be writing any descriptions for now, only if they should be wanted/needed. After conquering a settlement, this building must be built in order to do anything else in that settlement. It's fast to build, cheap, gives high law bonuses (the smaller the settlement, the higher the +law) and severely cripples the economy of the settlement. All effects apply only to your faction. It represents how you have taken the town, butchered its defenders, and how the populace stays hidden in their homes, anxiously awaiting what you might do next. It's also a way to prevent a particularly annoying occurence: when you conquer a village in the middle of nowhere, and it's measly 400 inhabitants revolt on your 2000 elite soldiers, kicking them out of town. Makes me want to bite my computer every time I see it. It also allows you to convert the settlement to your culture without too much ruccus, at least if the settlement is still small.
Martial Law then branches into two different directions.

1st choice, level 1: Occupied Province
Basicaly, you have taken over the settlement and left a garrison in town. The population is likely not very loyal to you (depending on who you are and who they are), but will remain quiet as long as you don't make any blunder. No particular effects, except a conversion bonus to your culture, maybe a small law bonus, and a penalty on tax income to represent the forces you have left there. This allows the recruitment of lower tier units (militia, irregular). It's a good choice to build outside of your homelands, when you want to further upgrade this settlement.

1st choice, level 2: Fiefdom
You have strenthended your control over the settlement. The population has calmed down, and has gotten somewhat accustumed to your rule. You can now start large-scale projects here. The Fiefdom allows the construction of nearly all buildings, and the recruitment of all except your best units (if the barracks are large enough). It has a conversion bonus when controlled by you, and a smaller conversion bonus to your culture regardless of who owns the settlement. This represents the fact that these lands have been in your hands for quite a while, and that even if you loose them, there will always be people here who'll think, ''Ah, weren't these good times when we were still ruled by faction x!''

2nd choice, level 1: Tributary Province
Nothing much to be said. You have taken the settlement and will leave the people there on their own as long as they behave and pay up. This choice offers few building options, and only regional levies may be recruited, but it offers sizeable happiness and trade bonuses. It can be built everywhere, and is a suitable option for settlements you don't want to bother with for the time being.

2nd choice, level 2: Assimilation
Pretty much like what I suggested in my earlier post. The population has grown closer to your own people. This allows the recruitment of all but your best units, and the construction of nearly all buildings. It gives a large conversion bonus to your culture if controlled by you, and a still a smaller one if controlled by anyone else, to reflect the mark left by the lasting assimilation. It is not available anywhere, though, only where the people might be receptive to the ways of your people. As an example, Dunland may build it north of Dunland, up to Southern Arnor (Weren't the Breelanders descendants of the Dunlendings?), and maybe in parts of Rohan. Rohan may build theirs in Rohan and in their former homelands (don't remember where that was). Rhun may build theirs in Rhun, Khand, and maybe parts of Rhovanion. Elves and Dwarves probably won't get access to this building. etc

2nd choice, level 3: Homeland
Self-explaining. Homeland regions pretty much as they are right now. Only available in a faction's starting regions (and maybe not even all of them), and maybe some select others. Allows all units, buildings and other bonuses. Huge conversion bonuses, even when controlled by a foreign power.

Oh, before I forget. THE POINT OF THESE BUILDINGS.
These assimilation buildings make a lot of other buildings redundant: faction-specific barracks, stables and maybe culture buildings, freeing up building trees. As far as barracks and stables are concerned, you could just use the vanilla ones, since the units that can be recruited there are dependant on the assimilation buildings. That way, they would even show up on the battle map!

[Aradan]

There are some good ideas here, and also some issues, like the indestructibility of the buildings. One could end up with 9 different indestructible assimilation buildings (with 5 more slots used up by walls, cores and global buildings), and there are only 24 building slots in a settlement, which leaves 10 slots for everything else (farms, ports, mines, barracks, stables, SBs, Dens, libaries, gardens, squares, traders...).

Another question would be, what's the point of having a building for homelands, since those will never change? Ie, RK will start with this building in Gondor and Arnor etc, and won't be able to build it anywhere else. Same with assimilation bldgs, if they are available only in fiefdoms (which means there's a hidden resource combo that marks a region as a fiefdom for a faction), why not use just the HR combo? What I'm saying is, since the construction of those buildings (the levels of assimilation) is tied to resources, which remain static, why use the buildings in the first place and not just work with the resources that are already there?
The real value of such a system would be if a faction's homelands/fiefdoms/outland were not tied to resources, but those buildings, that would be available everywhere. But if they were available everywhere, that would mean RK could possibly turn Harad into a homeland or a fiefdom, which would be unrealistic (since Haradrim have been hostile for thousands of years).

Something we hadn't really considered so far is the ability to designate regions as 'allied' instead of 'integrated', meaning that you have peace and order there, but you can't do much with it. Is that something the players would like as an option?
Would the AI be able to handle that option? Probably no, we would have to force the AI to use it in certain provinces, not use it in others and perhaps leave a few where it would decide semi-randomly. But what happens in a province where the previous owner has built all the barracks, all the infrastructure etc? Wouldn't building a 'tributary province' there give the new owner an advantage?




The system as your propose it will probably not make it in its entirety (we do have a similar thing in place), but certain elements of it are well worth considering, if we can make them fit the new system DoM uses for settlement control and development. The most significant change your system introduces is the option for a pacified settlement where little can be built, I think. If you were to make a list of other "that's why you need those buildings" points, what else would you have there, except "free up building trees"?

[The Sloth]

There are some good ideas here, and also some issues, like the indestructibility of the buildings. One could end up with 9 different indestructible assimilation buildings

Just how likely is that? But it's true it would look a bit silly in highly contested regions.

there are only 24 building slots in a settlement

Rats. Didn't know about this.

Another question would be, what's the point of having a building for homelands, since those will never change? Ie, RK will start with this building in Gondor and Arnor etc, and won't be able to build it anywhere else. Same with assimilation bldgs, if they are available only in fiefdoms (which means there's a hidden resource combo that marks a region as a fiefdom for a faction), why not use just the HR combo? What I'm saying is, since the construction of those buildings (the levels of assimilation) is tied to resources, which remain static, why use the buildings in the first place and not just work with the resources that are already there?

You're right, I guess. I suppose, I made those levels for the sake of completeness and transparency. There's also the culture issue, since I wanted these buildings to replace at least partly the current monuments/obelisks etc.

The real value of such a system would be if a faction's homelands/fiefdoms/outland were not tied to resources, but those buildings, that would be available everywhere. But if they were available everywhere, that would mean RK could possibly turn Harad into a homeland or a fiefdom, which would be unrealistic (since Haradrim have been hostile for thousands of years).

Now that you mention it, I think I chose some wrong names for these buildings, and my concept maybe isn't all that far from yours. First, forget about my Fiefdoms, and read ''Vassal State''. They're basicaly outland regions that have been in your control for a long time, and have adapted some of your customs. My Assimilation buildings would fit your fiefdoms better, since their lesser homelands that are available in some additional regions, but still have more of a resemblance to these homelands than Vassal States.

Something we hadn't really considered so far is the ability to designate regions as 'allied' instead of 'integrated', meaning that you have peace and order there, but you can't do much with it. Is that something the players would like as an option?

The allied region in itself would only be of interest for players that go for the whole map, I guess. It's main use, along with the Martial Law building, is to have some more time to bring order to new settlements, convert the population etc. If these buildings were in the game, I'd build Tributary Regions only where I can upgrade it later into an Assimilation, once I have the time and money for it. It's more of a provisorium.

Would the AI be able to handle that option? Probably no, we would have to force the AI to use it in certain provinces, not use it in others and perhaps leave a few where it would decide semi-randomly. But what happens in a province where the previous owner has built all the barracks, all the infrastructure etc? Wouldn't building a 'tributary province' there give the new owner an advantage?

Tricking the AI should be feasible. As far as my experience goes, it's addicted to +tax income and +population growth, and would rather forfeit the game than build anything related to farming.
And yes, huge allied cities would be real economic powerhouses, if corruption isn't too much of an issue. In EB, which has a similar option, it is even stated that that's the primary use of such a building. Such a city would, however, rely heavily on neighbouring cities for protection, since even with top notch barracks, it could only recruit its own levies, recruitment being tied not to barracks, but to the assimilation buildings. The barracks are only there to ensure that nobody recruits gondorian Men at Arms in some tiny village.

The system as your propose it will probably not make it in its entirety (we do have a similar thing in place), but certain elements of it are well worth considering, if we can make them fit the new system DoM uses for settlement control and development. The most significant change your system introduces is the option for a pacified settlement where little can be built, I think. If you were to make a list of other "that's why you need those buildings" points, what else would you have there, except "free up building trees"?

I'll try to write a full list:
- transparency (something to illustrate what you are even doing, why you have some units available here but not there etc)
- free building trees (but now that I think about it, since the vanilla temples aren't in FATW, there are more free building trees than you could possibly use, isn't that right?)
- more logical cultural conversion. We already discussed this in the Ask your Questions thread. I still think that conversion isn't a matter of some building being present or not, but of the historical roots of a people, and of who's holding the largest sword.
- more logical barracks. Since barracks are simply structures, it seems odd that I shold/must destroy the existent ones before building my own. Are dunlendish beds too small for gondorian soldiers to sleep in? Do haradrian horses abhore the smell of gondorian stables?
- fix for the aforementioned ''400 villagers beating the snot out of your best army''-phenomenon. This becomes even more frequent with religion/culture present in the game.
- more options when taking large cities. Frankly, when you conquer larger settlements, there's generally nothing you can do but wipe it out. With noble, noble dunedains/elves etc, this would be a huge blow to roleplaying. But the earlier levels of the assimilation buildings might allow to just occupy the city. That would be a matter of testing.

That's all I can think of for now.

[Stark1]

That looks a lot like EB. Is something similar planned?

[The Sloth]

Something similar is already present in TnS. The further you move away from your homeland, the less units you can build, the longer it takes to build things etc. In the end, my suggestion is only another version of it.

[Aradan]

Just how likely is that? But it's true it would look a bit silly in highly contested regions.

How likely it is isn't really relevant, because even if it happened rarely, it would still be an annoying issue. But I think it would be fairly usual to have 3 such buildings in Ithilien or in Khand etc

Rats. Didn't know about this.

To be precise, you can have more buildings than that. But the UI doesn't offer a way to navigate to the building panel that contains the buildings built after the 24th.

You're right, I guess. I suppose, I made those levels for the sake of completeness and transparency. There's also the culture issue, since I wanted these buildings to replace at least partly the current monuments/obelisks etc.

The memorials aren't really about the culture, they are about alignment. Technically speaking statues wouldn't probably change a people's alignment (that changes gradually, through contact with other cultures after a good deal of time), but memorials are a good way to translate such mechanics into less abstract terms. They are also nice buildings to have, they capture a bit of the atmosphere of Tolkien's works that a realistic simulation of alignment shift wouldn't.

Now that you mention it, I think I chose some wrong names for these buildings, and my concept maybe isn't all that far from yours. First, forget about my Fiefdoms, and read ''Vassal State''. They're basicaly outland regions that have been in your control for a long time, and have adapted some of your customs. My Assimilation buildings would fit your fiefdoms better, since their lesser homelands that are available in some additional regions, but still have more of a resemblance to these homelands than Vassal States.

See my reply to Stark at the end of the post about this.

The allied region in itself would only be of interest for players that go for the whole map, I guess. It's main use, along with the Martial Law building, is to have some more time to bring order to new settlements, convert the population etc. If these buildings were in the game, I'd build Tributary Regions only where I can upgrade it later into an Assimilation, once I have the time and money for it. It's more of a provisorium.

So the 'allied' building wouldn't be a real alternative to the 'integrated' one, just a first step that would eventually have to be upgraded. If that's the case, why not simply make a 'straight' building tree where 'allied' bldg is a precursor to the 'integrated' bldg, instead of a different branch? Wouldn't that still accomplish what you need?

Tricking the AI should be feasible. As far as my experience goes, it's addicted to +tax income and +population growth, and would rather forfeit the game than build anything related to farming.

Oh we don't need to trick the AI. I've found a way to dictate to it exactly what I want it to (not) build exactly where I want for each faction individually.

And yes, huge allied cities would be real economic powerhouses, if corruption isn't too much of an issue. In EB, which has a similar option, it is even stated that that's the primary use of such a building. Such a city would, however, rely heavily on neighbouring cities for protection, since even with top notch barracks, it could only recruit its own levies, recruitment being tied not to barracks, but to the assimilation buildings. The barracks are only there to ensure that nobody recruits gondorian Men at Arms in some tiny village.

See two paragraphs back.

- transparency (something to illustrate what you are even doing, why you have some units available here but not there etc)

To be really transparent in the way you want, you'd have to have one such building for each faction. That's quite a few. After all, we have provincial lore buildings which indicate the local populace's disposition towards factions. The PBs have received a major overhaul in DoM and they are quite full of info now.

- free building trees (but now that I think about it, since the vanilla temples aren't in FATW, there are more free building trees than you could possibly use, isn't that right?)

We have added every building we could think of in the game and we still have one tree left that we don't know what to do with. Trouble is, we have reached the 24 bldgs/settlement limit.

- more logical cultural conversion. We already discussed this in the Ask your Questions thread. I still think that conversion isn't a matter of some building being present or not, but of the historical roots of a people, and of who's holding the largest sword.

See seven () paragraphs above.

- more logical barracks. Since barracks are simply structures, it seems odd that I shold/must destroy the existent ones before building my own. Are dunlendish beds too small for gondorian soldiers to sleep in? Do haradrian horses abhore the smell of gondorian stables?

I agree here. However barracks aren't mean to simulate the buildings themselves, but rather the entire process of recruitment and training and all the people and resources necessary. In real life you can't just take over a city and start pumping out troops just because you have the buildings. You need conscripts, trainers, supplies, armourers, weaponsmiths, farriers, etc etc. The barracks/stables bldg is just a slightly game-y way to represent all that. Perhaps we should change the description a bit...

- fix for the aforementioned ''400 villagers beating the snot out of your best army''-phenomenon. This becomes even more frequent with religion/culture present in the game.

Building effects don't 'scale' according to population or time, so the same bonus you got the 1st turn of capture for 400 citizens, you'd still be getting 200 turns later for 1500 citizens. Does it make sense?
RTW's PO mechanics are generally wrong. What is needed here is not a large, fixed bonus (that the AI wouldn't know how long to maintain), but a calibration of the law and happiness levels in general. We'll be doing that.

- more options when taking large cities. Frankly, when you conquer larger settlements, there's generally nothing you can do but wipe it out. With noble, noble dunedains/elves etc, this would be a huge blow to roleplaying. But the earlier levels of the assimilation buildings might allow to just occupy the city. That would be a matter of testing.

I only see two options (a. conquer as usual and b. be gentle, but have no control over the city), the latter being just a step before going to the former.
Btw, with teh current system of faction-specific barracks, stables, memorials and SBs, taking a large city does give you something to do.

That looks a lot like EB. Is something similar planned?

The EB system has two issues:
a) it needs a script to work properly (to take care of AI 'choices')
b) it is kind of pointless in that it allows only certain options in certain regions, and those options are not alternatives of equal value, which means the player always goes for the best one available. So, if there is only one option that makes sense/the player will go for, why bother give the other ones?

In FATW, we simply don't offer the unnecessary options. We don't allow the choice between outland/fiefdom/homeland for RK in Gondor, because we know the player will always go for homelands, etc etc.

So, no, the DoM system is not exactly like EB in that it doesn't offer options that have to do with the level of involvement in a province's government.

[The Sloth]

So be it, then. But it's a little surprising that you already used up all building trees. Who's your 2D artist? He must be rather busy making all those building cards etc.
Also, in that case, I won't write any such elaborate descriptions anymore, except the ones I'm going to post now, since they're mostly recycled versions of earlier projects. But I might redo some of the existing ones.
So here's some more. I don't know if Bree will be a settlement in DoM. If so, you could have the Prouncing Pony as a unique building: the inn that once sold king Elessar's favorite brewage!

Inn
For most people, a ''journey'' will rarely go further than to the next town's market. The roads and paths of Middle-Earth might not be as dangerous as they used to be, but such news take much time to reach the ears of those who have stayed at home for their entire lives. For most people, a ''journey'' will rarely go further than to the next town's market.
There are however more adventurous souls, who come from remoted lands for whatever reasons: curiosity, profit or angry relatives. As they move through your lands, Inns will provide shelter for them. The standards are not impressive, but certainly better than a place in the streets. Also, they tend to become a good place for strangers to gather information, hire guides and translators and the merchants among them might even encounter their first clients.

Roadhouses
Following the fall of the Black Tower, and the Reunited Kingdom's rise to power, many dangerous and evil things have vanished from the world. Nowadays, a traveller may sleep in the darkest of forests without fear of having his throat slit by an orc, being eaten by spiders the size of a pig, or even worse. But travelling is still an unpleasant endeavour, with its bad weather, rough terrain, the occasional bandits and whatnot. Only those with a good reason will venture further away from their homes.
Roadhouses are built at irregular intervals near important roads and crossroads. They provide shelter for weary travellers and are more than welcomed as an opportunity to stop for a meal and a (hopefully) comfortable bed. They encourage movement of goods and travellers, and will prove benefic for a regions trade volume, since merchants will come from further afar.

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The following ones don't really have any purpose other than ambiance, and to help my favorite faction, Rhun, in its desperate quest for better units. They can be built in Khand, Rhun and Nurn, and enable the recruitment of Variag units.

Nomadic Camp
The Variags of Khand are an elusive people, as expected of nomads, who appear once here, then somewhere else, in their constant quest for new pastures. Those who get to know them, however, will learn where to look for them, and if more amical relations can be established, the Variags can become good trading partners and powerful allies.
Even though they live mainly in Khand, it is not unheard of for them to be sighted in neighbouring areas, especially when the promise of plunder or the gold of an ambitious warlord in search of capable mercenaries call them there.

Town of Tents
In this region, Variags have become a common sight, to the point where some of their camps, such as this one, are almost always inhabited... even though the inhabitants might change completely in only one day! Be it as it may, for nomads to become so used to a specific location, something around here must be calling to them, be it better pastures than they could hope to find elsewhere, or rather the purses full of gold offered to their warriors by local warlords in exchange for their services.

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Some random thoughts, some not directly related to buildings, but from now on, I'll rather post them here than clog up the Ask your Questions thread:
- How about making the men of far-harad recruitable outside of far-harad, in the top-level of the caravan buildings? For now, it's a logistical nightmare to get them to any frontline other than maybe khand. Which is a damn shame for such a cool unit.
- an idea for another unique building (you probably already thought of it, though): the ruins of Lake-Town, with the skeletton of the dragon Smaug
- I've always wondered about those cities in northern Mordor, especially Barad-Eden. Who on earth would actually want to live there?! Wouldn't it make more sense to turn these into pure military cities, with most economic buildings disabled (especially farms!), and pop. growth coming mostly from some bonus tied to barracks, and orc buildings?
- It always seemed like Harad was composed of many kingdoms and tribes, that were only being suppressed by Sauron. Yet we have one huge empire ruling all of it in FATW. Will we learn in DoM how that empire even could come into existence, and why the RK didn't intervene?
- Is it impossible to bribe family members in FATW? I once trained an emissary to 6 points influence, and gave my faction 2 million minar, but no matter where I went, no family member would take a bribe from me.

[Aradan]

So be it, then.

The idea is not that you give up, it's that you improve your idea so I don't have any arguments against it, so that it gets implemented.
I hope I'm not coming across as "this is my mod, I'll do it my way". If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't bother explaining. I am presenting arguments so you can see which are the weak points of your proposals in my opinion.

But it's a little surprising that you already used up all building trees. Who's your 2D artist? He must be rather busy making all those building cards etc.

Given everything we have added in DoM, I am surprised we still have that tree left. We have 8 different barracks, 8 different stables, 9 different memorials; those alone are more than 1/3 of the total trees.
We don't have someone doing building cards exclusively atm. MoN does many, I have done a few, Eorl has done/will do some, cedric might do some... They are an awfully huge task, that's true.

Also, in that case, I won't write any such elaborate descriptions anymore, except the ones I'm going to post now, since they're mostly recycled versions of earlier projects. But I might redo some of the existing ones.

That's probably better; making a detailed description for an idea that's not been agreed on is somewhat of a waste of time.

So here's some more. I don't know if Bree will be a settlement in DoM. If so, you could have the Prouncing Pony as a unique building: the inn that once sold king Elessar's favorite brewage!

Beat ya.

Inn
For most people, a ''journey'' will rarely go further than to the next town's market. The roads and paths of Middle-Earth might not be as dangerous as they used to be, but such news take much time to reach the ears of those who have stayed at home for their entire lives. For most people, a ''journey'' will rarely go further than to the next town's market.
There are however more adventurous souls, who come from remoted lands for whatever reasons: curiosity, profit or angry relatives. As they move through your lands, Inns will provide shelter for them. The standards are not impressive, but certainly better than a place in the streets. Also, they tend to become a good place for strangers to gather information, hire guides and translators and the merchants among them might even encounter their first clients.

Isn't that quite similar to the tavern building tree?

Roadhouses
Following the fall of the Black Tower, and the Reunited Kingdom's rise to power, many dangerous and evil things have vanished from the world. Nowadays, a traveller may sleep in the darkest of forests without fear of having his throat slit by an orc, being eaten by spiders the size of a pig, or even worse. But travelling is still an unpleasant endeavour, with its bad weather, rough terrain, the occasional bandits and whatnot. Only those with a good reason will venture further away from their homes.
Roadhouses are built at irregular intervals near important roads and crossroads. They provide shelter for weary travellers and are more than welcomed as an opportunity to stop for a meal and a (hopefully) comfortable bed. They encourage movement of goods and travellers, and will prove benefic for a regions trade volume, since merchants will come from further afar.

Beat ya again.

The following ones don't really have any purpose other than ambiance, and to help my favorite faction, Rhun, in its desperate quest for better units. They can be built in Khand, Rhun and Nurn, and enable the recruitment of Variag units.

Nomadic Camp
The Variags of Khand are an elusive people, as expected of nomads, who appear once here, then somewhere else, in their constant quest for new pastures. Those who get to know them, however, will learn where to look for them, and if more amical relations can be established, the Variags can become good trading partners and powerful allies.
Even though they live mainly in Khand, it is not unheard of for them to be sighted in neighbouring areas, especially when the promise of plunder or the gold of an ambitious warlord in search of capable mercenaries call them there.

Town of Tents
In this region, Variags have become a common sight, to the point where some of their camps, such as this one, are almost always inhabited... even though the inhabitants might change completely in only one day! Be it as it may, for nomads to become so used to a specific location, something around here must be calling to them, be it better pastures than they could hope to find elsewhere, or rather the purses full of gold offered to their warriors by local warlords in exchange for their services.

Though great for immersion and atmosphere, Variag recruitment is done through barracks, and such buildings wouldn't add something important enough to warrant a whole tree, I think.

- How about making the men of far-harad recruitable outside of far-harad, in the top-level of the caravan buildings? For now, it's a logistical nightmare to get them to any frontline other than maybe khand. Which is a damn shame for such a cool unit.

If we do that for them, shouldn't we also do it for every other province-specific unit?

- an idea for another unique building (you probably already thought of it, though): the ruins of Lake-Town, with the skeletton of the dragon Smaug

Beat you yet again.

- I've always wondered about those cities in northern Mordor, especially Barad-Eden. Who on earth would actually want to live there?! Wouldn't it make more sense to turn these into pure military cities, with most economic buildings disabled (especially farms!), and pop. growth coming mostly from some bonus tied to barracks, and orc buildings?

We are ahead of you again, though I think Durthang is a worse place to live than Barad-eden.

- It always seemed like Harad was composed of many kingdoms and tribes, that were only being suppressed by Sauron. Yet we have one huge empire ruling all of it in FATW. Will we learn in DoM how that empire even could come into existence, and why the RK didn't intervene?

Things will be different in DoM, I'm not sure yet how we'll go about inserting all the relevant history in the game. We will think of something though, I hope.

- Is it impossible to bribe family members in FATW? I once trained an emissary to 6 points influence, and gave my faction 2 million minar, but no matter where I went, no family member would take a bribe from me.

It should be. At least we haven't done anything to disable it that I know of...

[The Sloth]

The idea is not that you give up, it's that you improve your idea so I don't have any arguments against it, so that it gets implemented.
I hope I'm not coming across as "this is my mod, I'll do it my way". If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't bother explaining. I am presenting arguments so you can see which are the weak points of your proposals in my opinion.

It's all right. We had that phenomenon in RSII, where we wanted to please everyone and include everything we could, resulting in a huge feature creep that delayed the release much longer than might have been necessary.
I know myself that I'm a little overenthusiastic about everything related to buildings and traits. Just randomly throwing in stuff suits me more, I guess.

About inns/taverns: yes, though I'm stressing more the trade aspect of it, as opposed to RTW and FATW, who stress the ''party''-aspect.
About the men of far-harad: sure, but other province-specific units don't need to be walked around the map for ten turns until they arrive somewhere where they might have been usefull five turns earlier, when you had to defeat the ennemy without them.
Also, the caravan buildings is a unique way to represent how these warriors travel somewhere where their services are needed, and most of all can be afforded.

Things will be different in DoM, I'm not sure yet how we'll go about inserting all the relevant history in the game. We will think of something though, I hope.

One method, although terribly complicated, might be to have a campaign for each faction, as was done for RSII. That would allow you adapt the historical events to every faction. But that's probably too much pain for too little gain.

[Stark1]

I know. But EB system was different, as you said more like yours, possibly enabling dynamic allegiance of regions..

[Themea]

Aradan, do you work for the Greek government? After all it seems you have a lot of free time.

[Aradan]

Is is the post length?

[Themea]

Yeah that would be it