Tone down heretics?

[AstroCat]

What is the best way to down tone down the chance of heretics appearing and their strength once they appear. I feel they appear too often and worse when they do are extremely overpowered.

Thanks for the help.

[_Tartaros_]

you can hunt them down with units.
take every space to move and kill them at last by moving a unit to the position of the heretic (spy, assassin, princess, diplomat or merchant).

[AstroCat]

Thanks for the advice, but that is just a "gamey" fix to a "broken" mechanic. I was hoping to actually go in and mod them back to a reasonable level for my next campaign so I would not have to use such tactics while playing.

[Ferdiad]

What is the best way to down tone down the chance of heretics appearing and their strength once they appear. I feel they appear too often and worse when they do are extremely overpowered.

Thanks for the help.

Go to the Medieval 2 Total War file folder. Go to tools and select "Unpack all" from the Unpacker folder if you haven't already done this (if you have, skip this step).

Go to mods, go to SS6.3, go to data, and then go to the file called "export_descr_character_traits" which should be listed below the various data folders.

Do ctrl+f and type in "naturalhereticskill" and search that. it should take you right to the trait. You can modify the piety bonus that each level of it gives. The next trait is "hereticpersuasion" which is right below. You can change that too.

Do ctrl+f again and type in "heretic traits" and it should take you to their triggers. Scroll down a bit and you should see something like this (I changed the trigger probabilities, so mine won't be the same as the one you have):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger hereticinit1a
WhenToTest PriestBecomesHeretic
Condition Trait NaturalHereticSkill = 0
Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 100
Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 70
Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 50
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 35
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 30
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 20
;------------------------------------------
Trigger hereticinit7
WhenToTest AgentCreated
Condition AgentType = heretic
Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 100
Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 70
Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 50
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 35
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 30
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 20

You can change it to that, or whatever you so choose: the probability of 100 is for the first level of a trait, the next probability number is for the second level of a trait, etc. Change both, and the chance of priest-to-heretic traits and randomly-spawned heretic traits will go down.

And that should be it. Boom, heretics nerfed, and however according to your preference as you wish.

It's semi-save game compatible. That is, once you re-load the game, new heretics will be subject to your trait effect and probability changes. Ones that are already on the stratmap will remain the same. Those guys you'll have to get rid of the old-fashioned way, or use the military execution trick (but the AI isn't smart enough to do that, and IMHO it makes it harder for heretics to conquer everything the AI has if you change trait values).

[StupidAlarmClockGuy]

Thank you for reposting that so I didn't have to look for it and dig it up.

[AstroCat]

Do you know by any chance what the setting were in 6.3? I'd like to be able to compare and pick a middle balance, I don't mind them being a bit tougher. Or if you have suggested or recommended settings I'd be open to try them. Thanks for the help.

Also I saw there was a way to effect heretics in the descr_campaign_db.xml file. In the Religion section. Which method(s) and settings would be best for a toned down, still more challenging than vanilla, and balanced system?

<religion>
		<max_witches_per_region uint="1"/>
		<max_witches uint="25"/>
		<max_heretics_per_region uint="1"/>
		<max_heretics uint="50"/>
		<max_heretics_conversion_modifier float="3.0"/>
		<max_inquisitors_per_region uint="1"/>
		<max_inquisitors uint="15"/>
		<heretic_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.0175"/>
		<heretic_conversion_rate_offset float="0.025"/>
		<witch_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.03"/>
		<witch_conversion_rate_offset float="0.025"/>
		<inquisitor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.010"/>
		<inquisitor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.04"/>
		<priest_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.004"/>
		<priest_conversion_rate_offset float="0.015"/>
		<witch_creation_modifier float="20.0"/>
		<heretic_creation_modifier float="9.0"/>
		<inquisitor_creation_modifier float="0.3"/>
		<min_cardinal_piety uint="5"/>
		<convert_to_heretic_base_modifier float="8.0"/>
		<convert_to_heretic_unorthodox_modifier float="0.35"/>
		<inquisitor_turn_start uint="0"/>
		<inquisitor_target_crusades bool="false"/>
		<founding_conversion_default_rate float="0.0"/>
		<neighbour_normalise_weight float="0.02"/>
		<governor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.02"/>
		<governor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.025"/>
		<spy_conversion_rate_offset float="0.001"/>
		<spy_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.002"/>
		<owner_conversion_default_rate float="0.02"/>
		<spy_conversion_rate_foreign_modifier float="0.0"/>
	</religion>

[Ferdiad]

Do you know by any chance what the setting were in 6.3? I'd like to be able to compare and pick a middle balance, I don't mind them being a bit tougher. Or if you have suggested or recommended settings I'd be open to try them. Thanks for the help.

Also I saw there was a way to effect heretics in the descr_campaign_db.xml file. In the Religion section. Which method(s) and settings would be best for a toned down, still more challenging than vanilla, and balanced system?

<religion>
        <max_witches_per_region uint="1"/>
        <max_witches uint="25"/>
        <max_heretics_per_region uint="1"/>
        <max_heretics uint="50"/>
        <max_heretics_conversion_modifier float="3.0"/>
        <max_inquisitors_per_region uint="1"/>
        <max_inquisitors uint="15"/>
        <heretic_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.0175"/>
        <heretic_conversion_rate_offset float="0.025"/>
        <witch_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.03"/>
        <witch_conversion_rate_offset float="0.025"/>
        <inquisitor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.010"/>
        <inquisitor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.04"/>
        <priest_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.004"/>
        <priest_conversion_rate_offset float="0.015"/>
        <witch_creation_modifier float="20.0"/>
        <heretic_creation_modifier float="9.0"/>
        <inquisitor_creation_modifier float="0.3"/>
        <min_cardinal_piety uint="5"/>
        <convert_to_heretic_base_modifier float="8.0"/>
        <convert_to_heretic_unorthodox_modifier float="0.35"/>
        <inquisitor_turn_start uint="0"/>
        <inquisitor_target_crusades bool="false"/>
        <founding_conversion_default_rate float="0.0"/>
        <neighbour_normalise_weight float="0.02"/>
        <governor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.02"/>
        <governor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.025"/>
        <spy_conversion_rate_offset float="0.001"/>
        <spy_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.002"/>
        <owner_conversion_default_rate float="0.02"/>
        <spy_conversion_rate_foreign_modifier float="0.0"/>
    </religion>

Try halfing the relevant values to see if that works.

[AstroCat]

I can't be the only one who has lowered the heretics back to a more reasonable level. Has anyone found a balanced set of modifiers that works well?

[Gorrrrrn]

These are the values from a version of my old rozmod with SS6.2 and RC/RR - can't say now whether the values are vanilla SS6.2, RC/RR or mine or got from somewhere else:

<religion>
      <max_witches_per_region uint="1"/>
      <max_witches uint="10"/>
      <max_heretics_per_region uint="1"/>
      <max_heretics uint="20"/>
      <max_heretics_conversion_modifier float="1.0"/>
      <max_inquisitors_per_region uint="1"/>
      <max_inquisitors uint="10"/>
      <heretic_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.0075"/>
      <heretic_conversion_rate_offset float="0.025"/>
      <witch_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.0"/>
      <witch_conversion_rate_offset float="0.02"/>
      <inquisitor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.010"/>
      <inquisitor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.04"/>
      <priest_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.005"/>
      <priest_conversion_rate_offset float="0.02"/>
      <witch_creation_modifier float="1.0"/>
      <heretic_creation_modifier float="0.2"/>
      <inquisitor_creation_modifier float="0.1"/>
      <min_cardinal_piety uint="5"/>
      <convert_to_heretic_base_modifier float="4.0"/>
      <convert_to_heretic_unorthodox_modifier float="0.5"/>
      <inquisitor_turn_start uint="100"/>
      <inquisitor_target_crusades bool="false"/>
       <founding_conversion_default_rate float="0.0"/>
      <neighbour_normalise_weight float="0.02"/>
      <governor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.02"/>
      <governor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.025"/>
      <spy_conversion_rate_offset float="0.001"/>
      <spy_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.002"/>
      <owner_conversion_default_rate float="0.02"/>
      <spy_conversion_rate_foreign_modifier float="0.0"/>
   </religion>

[Liandro]

Whats funny is throwing the all to Rome with the Pope, even the dreaded Inquisitors can stop them, I figure they deserve each other...

[AstroCat]

So is it better to mod the heretics in the export_descr_character_traits.txt file or the descr_campaign_db.xml file? Or some combination of them?

[Ferdiad]

So is it better to mod the heretics in the export_descr_character_traits.txt file or the descr_campaign_db.xml file? Or some combination of them?

Do both for the full effect.EDCT gives tem their huge amount of Piety and the xml makes that more effeciant.

[StupidAlarmClockGuy]

I'd like to see if there's a way to give heretics inverse piety/denouncability attributes. That is, a heretic who isn't especially zealous is harder to track and actually prove anything against, since his beliefs are generally going to be more low key and less well-known by the public. A heretic with strong beliefs is going to get himself killed most of the time if he doesn't escape the clutches of the Church.

That way, low-level heretics who individually have a lower effect on the strat map are very difficult to take out, and heretics who can cause big religious swings can be dealt with relatively quickly if you have priests who don't fall to heretical beliefs before they can denounce them.

[AstroCat]

Ok here is what I did. Open for suggestions before I start my new campaign. Anything seem unbalanced or off? Looking for a bit tougher than vanilla but defintely not the uber-heretics that can only be defeated with "gamey" tactics of 6.4.

export_descr_character_traits.txt

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;********* HERETIC TRAITS *********
;------------------------------------------
Trait NaturalHereticSkill
Characters heretic

Level New_Faith
Description New_Faith_desc
EffectsDescription New_Faith_effects_desc
Threshold 1

Effect Piety 1

Level New_Conviction
Description New_Conviction_desc
EffectsDescription New_Conviction_effects_desc
Threshold 2

Effect Piety 2

Level Spiritually_Reborn
Description Spiritually_Reborn_desc
EffectsDescription Spiritually_Reborn_effects_desc
Threshold 3

Effect Piety 3

;------------------------------------------
Trigger hereticinit1a
WhenToTest PriestBecomesHeretic

Condition Trait NaturalHereticSkill = 0

Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 100
Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 70
Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 50
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 35
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 30
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 20

;------------------------------------------
Trigger hereticinit7
WhenToTest AgentCreated

Condition AgentType = heretic

Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 100
Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 70
Affects NaturalHereticSkill 1 Chance 50
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 35
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 30
Affects HereticPersuasion 1 Chance 20

;------------------------------------------

descr_campaign_db.xml

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

<religion>
<max_witches_per_region uint="1"/>
<max_witches uint="20"/>
<max_heretics_per_region uint="1"/>
<max_heretics uint="50"/>
<max_heretics_conversion_modifier float="1.0"/>
<max_inquisitors_per_region uint="1"/>
<max_inquisitors uint="15"/>
<heretic_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.0075"/>
<heretic_conversion_rate_offset float="0.025"/>
<witch_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.03"/>
<witch_conversion_rate_offset float="0.025"/>
<inquisitor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.010"/>
<inquisitor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.04"/>
<priest_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.004"/>
<priest_conversion_rate_offset float="0.015"/>
<witch_creation_modifier float="10.0"/>
<heretic_creation_modifier float="9.0"/>
<inquisitor_creation_modifier float="0.3"/>
<min_cardinal_piety uint="5"/>
<convert_to_heretic_base_modifier float="8.0"/>
<convert_to_heretic_unorthodox_modifier float="0.35"/>
<inquisitor_turn_start uint="0"/>
<inquisitor_target_crusades bool="false"/>
<founding_conversion_default_rate float="0.0"/>
<neighbour_normalise_weight float="0.02"/>
<governor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.02"/>
<governor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.025"/>
<spy_conversion_rate_offset float="0.001"/>
<spy_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.002"/>
<owner_conversion_default_rate float="0.02"/>
<spy_conversion_rate_foreign_modifier float="0.0"/>
</religion>

[Ferdiad]

Looks good to me, perhaps release it as a submod?

[AstroCat]

I'll have to try it out a bit first and see how it goes. I'm actually currently playing with Empire a bit, but soon will be back to start a new SS campaign and then I'll test it out.

[Ferdiad]

I'll have to try it out a bit first and see how it goes. I'm actually currently playing with Empire a bit, but soon will be back to start a new SS campaign and then I'll test it out.

So how did it go?

[AstroCat]

lol Haven't got there yet, too much "real life", hope to try it out over this weekend. I'll report back how it plays.