When can you recruit Carroccio Standards?

[France]

I started playing an early era campaign as Venice and one of the main reasons for playing Venice is to use those Carroccio Standards. I'm not too far only around turn 40 or so.. so does anyone know when you can start recruiting these?

[Ishan]

Is it not available from City hall>Mayor's palace?

[-Myth-]

Does anyone know how much morale they give. Don't they become obsolete or with very diminishing returns if you have a 5-6 chiv general?

[bojan811]

does the general with high chiv gives moral bonus to all units or just some of them in his radius.
And what are the benefits of command stars on general in real battles or when it says +1 com when comanding a calvary unit?

[Ichon]

I don't know if something has been changed but after release of MTW2 there was a post from CA that said this;

Quoted from Jerome Grasdyke (from CA):

"Re: CA: what do command stars do?

It currently affects both morale and combat ability - we tried it for a while with just morale, but it ended up being not enough of a bonus. The combat calculations have changed so much from Rome to Medieval as to be unrecogniseable, so it's no longer easy to equate stars to experience.
As a rule of thumb it's one point of attack per command rank, up to a maximum of 10, and this can become negative for very bad generals. This combat bonus is applied to all troops under his command on the battlefield. Experience is one point of attack and one point of defense per chevron, plus a morale bonus as well.
The general's command also controls his radius-of-effect, which is set to 30 m + 5 m * command + 2 m * influence. This is used to award morale bonusses to nearby units (in addition to the combat bonus), and when testing which units are affected it tests the distance between the actual general's position and the centre-point of the unit being considered.
Hopefully that answers your question."

So you can see that a generals command increase if he has the trait- that gives command +1 for commanding cavalry unit. Remove all cavalry and the command stars should -1. Also works for other traits and ancillaries. For sieges you only get the command bonus when actual siege is in progress but from what I've observed it works.

The +1 attack per command rank is a bit confusing- if its per level of command stars this does not seem to bear with experience. That would mean 10 star general commanding 9 xp unit the unit has +13 attack. If units gained so much I'd guess it would be more noticeable. Ranks for command might then mean something else- every 2 command is a new rank? Even then that is +8 attack but not outside the realm of possibility. Especially since its a bit rare to have a 10 star commander and a full army of 7-9xp units.

The main reason I doubt 10 star command adds so much is that playing already on VH which gives good morale bonus many AI generals are 10 star commanders... while I've been able to win with equal sized army with 0-1 star general. It seems it would be quite difficult to win when the AI units are getting +10-15 attack. Unless I am killing the enemy general quickly enough and then the army loses the bonus which is also possible since I tend to focus my attacks on killing enemy general. I might just have been unknowingly performing the best tactic in the game if command stars actually give such large bonus still in SS as this CA response indicates.

Alternatively it might be true but the radius is too small even at 55 meters at max to totally determine the battle as especially the AI usually does not keep its general near its main body of troops. It might also explain why sometimes the fight to kill a general surrounded by even some spear militias is so dang tough... I assumed it was the generals BG and fighter traits but if the spear militia are within radius and have 3xp themselves for +1 attack and the general gives +10 more- then those spear militias are fighting at 12 attack but same defense. So they become the equal of the best melee fighters... that is plausible.

What I don't know is how much of a unit has to be in command radius- the center point of the unit, the captain, or just tiny portion of maybe less than a full rank of the unit for the entire unit to gain the bonus.

EDIT- though this post may be talking about Medieval 1. The reference to Rome is confusing as Medieval 1 was released before Rome and MWT2 after Rome. Tracking down the original post it appears from 2004 before MTW2 released but I can't find any more recent info about MTW2 specifically on how the system works.

[bojan811]

So you can see that a generals command increase if he has the trait- that gives command +1 for commanding cavalry unit. Remove all cavalry and the command stars should -1. Also works for other traits and ancillaries. For sieges you only get the command bonus when actual siege is in progress but from what I've observed it works.

Ok now i am in the battle deployment screen and even with the retinue master of horse +1 com when commanding calvary and 2 units of feudal mounted knights present + one light calavry unit still my general has only one star because of the promising commander trait +1 star. So the question for ss developers what is the point of such traits if they do not give proper bonuses? Or this kind of things are hard coded?

[Ichon]

Ok now i am in the battle deployment screen and even with the retinue master of horse +1 com when commanding calvary and 2 units of feudal mounted knights present + one light calavry unit still my general has only one star because of the promising commander trait +1 star. So the question for ss developers what is the point of such traits if they do not give proper bonuses? Or this kind of things are hard coded?

Hmm- are you sure there are no negative command traits present? It works when I've checked before and every time I thought it wasn't I found -command traits present.

[bojan811]

Thanks for the rep...realy nice explanation.
And like you sad i did not noticed that command stars add something to unit stats.
Maby somebody else here knows something more about this topic that can help us.

[bojan811]

my general was young man. So just a couple of no effect traits and 1 retinue regarding horses +1 for calvary +5 movment points, i double checked just in case but no.

[Ichon]

Well its supposed to work... I'll have to start checking again as I haven't really since 6.2- maybe something was changed.

[bojan811]

in my case it is not working and the comand stars do not give attack bonus to units.
For moral i can't tell because the general had only one and the units of pilgrims had only +1 attack incrised for +1 exp.
So there is no right answer to this.
Could someone else test this to and post back?

[Ishan]

the comand stars do not give attack bonus to units.

It doesn't the unit stats are not affected by command stars in anyway only experience can affect the attack and defence of the units.

[Ichon]

What do command stars do then? Just expand command radius?

As for command stars affecting attack I said in the edit that was for MTW1... not sure what the effects are in MTW2. However if you have a trait like- "Master of Horse" +1 command effect then that extra command star should show up as long as no negative traits are present. If you are playing BGR or some other submods there are hidden negative traits which reduce command so its not always obvious just looking at the general in game. You have to open file.

[bojan811]

What do command stars do then? Just expand command radius?

As for command stars affecting attack I said in the edit that was for MTW1... not sure what the effects are in MTW2. However if you have a trait like- "Master of Horse" +1 command effect then that extra command star should show up as long as no negative traits are present. If you are playing BGR or some other submods there are hidden negative traits which reduce command so its not always obvious just looking at the general in game. You have to open file.

Because i am new to this mod i play with bgr III not IV wich is in the ss 6.4 setup menu.
And dose he add some negative/positive hiden traits i dont know.

[Ishan]

Not sure about RTW and MTW1 you can be right in that case about the stat bonuses there but it's not true in M2TW.

Command affects morale as a whole while chivalry affects morale when the general is near its troops. Dread lowers enemy morale when the opponent general is near enemy troops.

Command directly affects your auto resolves and command also determines how effective your rally command is when trying to calm down fleeing troops.
As for stats it might affect the stamina of the units like more time to drain etc but i haven't noticed it only read it on forums.
Point Blank can shed some light on it he has spent a lot of time on EDU so he might know whether my points are right or not.

[Ichon]

BGR IV has negative command of -7. I think BGR III has negative hidden traits as well but not as sure there. Been a long time since I played it. You'll have to go read BGR III info.

[bojan811]

will do that no prob.