Seleucid elephants

[The Doge of Venice]

Hey everyone I was just wondering why for the Seleucid empire the Indian elephants and Cataphract elephants have literally the same statistics even though the Cataphract elephants cost more then twice as much?

[Ferdiad]

type indian elephant
dictionary indian_elephant
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier elephant_javelineer, 18, 6, 1
mount elephant indian
attributes sea_faring, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted, hardy, power_charge, can_run_amok
formation 7, 11, 13, 16, 1, square
stat_health 1, 30
stat_pri 8, 22, javelin, 50, 20, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 22, no, 0, 0, melee, other, blunt, none, 25, 0.33
stat_sec_attr ap, launching
stat_pri_armour 8, 19, 5, flesh
stat_sec_armour 1, 1, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 2, -4, 0
stat_mental 25, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 100
stat_fire_delay 100000
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 4074, 1407, 615, 818, 509
ownership seleucid, slave

type elephant cataphract
dictionary elephant_cataphract
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier greek_big_elephant_archer, 18, 6, 1
mount elephant indian cataphract
attributes sea_faring, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted, hardy, power_charge, can_run_amok
formation 7, 11, 13, 16, 1, square
stat_health 1, 40
stat_pri 8, 22, pointed_stick, 100, 60, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 22, no, 0, 0, melee, other, blunt, none, 25, 0.33
stat_sec_attr ap, launching
stat_pri_armour 10, 20, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 1, 1, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground -1, 2, -5, -1
stat_mental 28, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 100
stat_fire_delay 100000
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 16078, 5467, 2416, 3220, 2010
ownership seleucid, slave

[The Doge of Venice]

Thanks for putting that up. That's weird since in game the unit card makes them look the same. It still seems like the Cataphract are overpriced for the bonus you get over Indian elephants.

[chris10]

Thanks for putting that up. That's weird since in game the unit card makes them look the same. It still seems like the Cataphract are overpriced for the bonus you get over Indian elephants.

The price may simulate the difficulties in adquiring these Elephants in the Seleucid Empire cause they really had no access to Elephants...in the East is Parthia with a natural access to Elephants and in the SouthEast is Egypt with a natural access to Elephants too ...However, in the middle east there are no Elephants and never have been...they have to bring them over from far away

On the other side the Seleucid Empire has a lot of starting Provinces and if they could access such effective unit for relative low money they would probably steamroll their neighbours in no time..

[Spike]

and I still wonder, the maximum HP is 15 or the max HP shown is 15?

plus I think primary defense attribute on elephants are useless, since they use secondary defense (secondary HP for elephants), and I never see an elephant rider get killed without killing the elephant (having seen the chariot rider die without chariot die, maybe the elephant crew is placed too high to be killed?)

[chris10]

and I still wonder, the maximum HP is 15 or the max HP shown is 15?

The Max HP is 15...any extra above that is ignored by the engine...
however...if the hitpoints fo example are 23 in the EDU it does matter for autoresolve but as for the battlemap only 15 are taken into account...
Hope that clears up some cunfusion why are some units assigned more than 15 hitpoints in the EDU

[Ferdiad]

Ya, they're useless for the amount of money invested.

[The Doge of Venice]

I didn't even realize the charioteers could be killed without breaking the whole chariot. It would make a lot of sense for elephant riders to be destroyable.

Cataphract elephants aren't worth it but Indian ones are if you can protect them from missile troops and use them at the right moment in the rear of enemy units engaged with your phalanx you can cause absolute havoc.

[Spike]

I didn't even realize the charioteers could be killed without breaking the whole chariot. It would make a lot of sense for elephant riders to be destroyable.

Cataphract elephants aren't worth it but Indian ones are if you can protect them from missile troops and use them at the right moment in the rear of enemy units engaged with your phalanx you can cause absolute havoc.

a healthy shower of pilum will dismount some of the chariot passangers without killing their chariot (as long as the driver is still alive and their chariots not broken), but it was rare occurence, most of them all dead anyway

[Ferdiad]

a healthy shower of pilum will dismount some of the chariot passangers without killing their chariot (as long as the driver is still alive and their chariots not broken), but it was rare occurence, most of them all dead anyway

I've only seen it once tbh.

[The Doge of Venice]

I definitely don't that much attention since when I use Chariots as Seleucids I'm very careful with them and like to maneuver them to avoid pilum and just ram them into the backs of engaged units.

[ISA Gunner]

Wow....2 extra armour, 1 extra defence skill and only 3 extra morale for 4000 more upkeep per turn....yeah, definitely worth it.

[chris10]

Wow....2 extra armour, 1 extra defence skill and only 3 extra morale for 4000 more upkeep per turn....yeah, definitely worth it.

read post no3

[Rex Basiliscus]

The price may simulate the difficulties in adquiring these Elephants in the Seleucid Empire cause they really had no access to Elephants...in the East is Parthia with a natural access to Elephants and in the SouthEast is Egypt with a natural access to Elephants too ...However, in the middle east there are no Elephants and never have been...they have to bring them over from far away

On the other side the Seleucid Empire has a lot of starting Provinces and if they could access such effective unit for relative low money they would probably steamroll their neighbours in no time..

Well actually ...

Parthia at this time period never used elephants. The Seleucid king Antiochus the Great, however, received 150 elephants from the Indian king as a tribute, following his eastern expeditions when he subdued Parthia and Bactria to vassal states and invaded the Indus valley. So he had elephants... quite a lot of them. Afterwards, I think the Seleucids breded them in Mesopotamia, but I'm not sure. So until Parthian invasion, the Seleucids had a "supply" of elephants. Even more so than the Ptolemies.
The Seleucids were also the first Hellenistic rulers to have used the elephants in battle (Seleucus and his son Antiochus at Ipsos).

[chris10]

Well actually ...

Parthia at this time period never used elephants. The Seleucid king Antiochus the Great, however, received 150 elephants from the Indian king as a tribute, following his eastern expeditions when he subdued Parthia and Bactria to vassal states and invaded the Indus valley. So he had elephants... quite a lot of them. Afterwards, I think the Seleucids breded them in Mesopotamia, but I'm not sure. So until Parthian invasion, the Seleucids had a "supply" of elephants. Even more so than the Ptolemies.
The Seleucids were also the first Hellenistic rulers to have used the elephants in battle (Seleucus and his son Antiochus at Ipsos).

....fair enough...very interesting...however...with that peanuts number of elephants you hardly will bred lage numbers of them giving the fact that they grow almost slower as humans...to speak about a constant "supply" in that regard maybe overstretches a bit the reality ... ...for just one generation of 50-60 Elephants they would have waited 22 months of pregnancy and then more than 20-25 years ...thats how long it takes until they are full adult...

[Rex Basiliscus]

I wouldn't say 150 elephants are not much I mean he got them in one campaign, having lost no soldier in India... that to me seems a great success. Also, they maintained a constant trade with India, so they could also import them anytime they needed... Ptolemies had more difficulties getting them.

[The Doge of Venice]

Yeah at that time the Indian elephants were the largest in war since the African ones we know nowadays were too far away to get and they were using the now extinct smaller forest elephant.


Oh and elephants like all creatures have their number grow exponentially so breeding them over a couple generations would have you get way more then you started with and if you only sent the males to war the females wold be busy making new elephants. Also unless a battle goes very poorly it is very hard to kill an elephant.

[chris10]

Oh and elephants like all creatures have their number grow exponentially so breeding them over a couple generations would have you get way more then you started with and if you only sent the males to war the females wold be busy making new elephants. Also unless a battle goes very poorly it is very hard to kill an elephant.

did you ever realized that it takes over 20 years for an elephant to get adult + 22 months of pregnancy ?
btw Elepahnts have only 1 pup at a time...so they will not reproduce to big numbers...less when caged...
make some numbers and then calculate how many elepehant they could have after 100 years breeding when they start with
150 elephants...assuming a 50/50 mix male/female...but get in mind specific facts like max possible birth rate in a lifetime,caged Elepahnts do not reproduce as much etc etc...

[The Doge of Venice]

The females are at breeding age at 15 years old. They can have 3 or 4 babies in their lifetime on average so a hundred years and you could have up to a thousand possibly

info here http://www.honoluluzoo.org/indian_elephant.htm