Racism: the real debate

[Emperor Dimitricus]

i should be free to express my opinion in a constructive manner.
i can say that i think white people are better at so and so than black people.
that is not a flame, nor is it a troll.
i am stating my opinion.
i will say that black people are better sprinters cos we always see black people win races in olympics
and yet that is not seen as being rascist.
but.
if i turn around and say that white people are more intelligent cos there are more white people in positions of power in governments and industry, i would likely get called a rascist.
it is seen as rascist to put down a black person for one thing, but perfectly fine to put down a white person for the same thing.
i mean, i can argue that brits are superior to americans and back it up with facts/opinions
but if i dont, and i say "americans suck" or "we're better than americans", thats a flame.
its EXACTLY the same thing.
so there is nothing wrong with rascism.
just the way you talk about it.
i never said it is right to promote brits being better than americans either.
but if i want to believe it myself, and express my opinion, i should be allowed to in a constructive debate.

what do you think?

[rez]

I think all hell is about to break loose.

But seriously the right to express a valid opinion which is backed up by evidence which also does not incite UTTER racial superiority seems ok. But the line is very hazy and you can wander in and out of racism very easily. Brave of you to venture the point though, very brave...

[RZZZA]

Yeah, you can express any damn opinion you want, but that doesnt mean that you then dont have to deal with the consequences...i.e. being torn to shreds, censored, moderated, possibly suspended or banned.

So...go ahead, say anything you want, do whatever you feel like...as LONG AS you are willing to deal with the consequences of your actions.

[Emperor Dimitricus]

Are those consequences fair though? i am not saying for one moment that i am rascist (many of my best friends are blacks and chinese) but if i was to express an opinion against another race, why should i get shot down for it any more than what would happen if i said something about another nation etc?

[RZZZA]

Fair is not an issue here, you cant expect to push the red button and then get treated "fairly". What you do when you post something controversial is you walk on the razors edge, go too far and you'll get sliced. Toy with sensitive issues like race and you might attract some unwanted staff/mod attention, its the equivelant of trolling, flamebaiting, hatemongering if you will. If the Babes thread was attacked for possibly "attracting the wrong crowd" then a race bashing thread could be accused of the same.

[danzig]

Are those consequences fair though? i am not saying for one moment that i am rascist (many of my best friends are blacks and chinese) but if i was to express an opinion against another race, why should i get shot down for it any more than what would happen if i said something about another nation etc?

You shouldnt but that is the world we live in where a giant guilt complex is laid upon one segment of the population due the actions of long dead ancestors. To put it in perspective, Rush Limbaugh got in trouble for his McNabb comment awhile back meanwhile Bryan Gumbal the other day commented the winter olympics are like a gop convention...a bunch of white people so how can they call it world class competition when there are so few blacks who compete in it. Certainly both comments are basically in the same vein but thus far Gumbal has yet to pay any of those 'consequences' for his comments. From an american point of view basically if your white you shutup about race because no matter what you say, no matter how you say it, no matter HOW valid it maybe you'll get toasted for it.

[RZZZA]

I disagree with you there Danzig, plenty of white people talk about black people the same way black people talk about us. White comedians even say the N word sometimes on stage now, I'd say thats some real progression. Have you seen Lisa Lampanelli's standup? She says the N words every 5 minutes and she's whiter than Mr. Clean.

So I definetly think, in the field of comedy and from the perspective of the youth, there is definetly more progression in racial issues and people can talk about their differences and laugh about it more easily and freely. we can thank Dave Chappelle, Carlos Mencia, Wanda Sykes, and all those other comedians that indirectly influenced the progression...like...D.L. Hughley and Eddie griffin...and Chris Rock...and of course Richard Pryor way back in the 70's.

[danzig]

I disagree with you there Danzig, plenty of white people talk about black people the same way black people talk about us. White comedians even say the N word sometimes on stage now, I'd say thats some real progression. Have you seen Lisa Lampanelli's standup? She says the N words every 5 minutes and she's whiter than Mr. Clean.

Well not talking about the N word, notice right there our self imposed limit on using the word despite the fact we arent using it in way to call someone it but rather discussing the word itself. Im guessing too if I spell it out (******) that a mod might possibly edit it out even though the context of its usage is not in the manner that is offensive. It is after all a word and there is alot of difference in discussing the word and calling someone it. Regardless I think we are talking about race discussions in general, not using the infamous N word since it is a word that has vile, racist history to it and certainly not arguing we should all run around using it. What I find troubling is the uncomfortable feeling of guilt some people get when even talking about the word, I for example am not racist nor do I use the word but I dont see why I should cringe if I hear someone else us it. Its igrained in alot of 'white america' that even discussing the word and its power is somehow wrong.

Comics are a bad example though since they push the the limit of free speech so its natural they would push the limit on this as well, though they (imo) do alot of good in removing the 'power' of such words and that is a good thing. Hopefully someday pushing things to point someday the only reason the word comes up is to describe it as some stupid vile insult used by idiots long ago. The problem is when you get into normal, everday discussion were certain comments or subjects are taboo simply because who is saying them and that is the problem imo. Making an observation about the makeup of a specific sport is fine if you are one race but not if you are another, it ignores whether the comment itself is valid and simply focuses on WHO is saying it and that is the problem.

ya the white american suffers most of racism, gotcha @ danzig

well the winter olympic thing seems logic to me. in the countries where is lots of snow and winter the majority of ppl are white...

summer olympic stuff does not rely on snow (believe it or not) so there are way more black athletes

Pfft didnt say its 'racism' since its self imposed limits but yes you prove my point winter olympics are going to be dominated by countries that are basically full of snow and since more 'white' people tend to live in those countries probably going to end up with alot more of them winning medals. I mean some guy living in a desert region is going to have some problems practicing sking There is nothing wrong with the comment Ill agree but if say Gumbel was white well then it would be an issue and that is my point.

[Ahlerich]

if there would be an issue if that guy would be white it would be silly

[Turbo]

You shouldnt but that is the world we live in where a giant guilt complex is laid upon one segment of the population due the actions of long dead ancestors. To put it in perspective, Rush Limbaugh got in trouble for his McNabb comment awhile back meanwhile Bryan Gumbal the other day commented the winter olympics are like a gop convention...a bunch of white people so how can they call it world class competition when there are so few blacks who compete in it. Certainly both comments are basically in the same vein but thus far Gumbal has yet to pay any of those 'consequences' for his comments. From an american point of view basically if your white you shutup about race because no matter what you say, no matter how you say it, no matter HOW valid it maybe you'll get toasted for it.

Good point. It seems if you are in the majority you are expected to sacrifice your rights in the US. Plenty of examples of this.

Prayer is prohibited in public schools because others "might" find it offensive. Even though the Constitution states that this is one nation under God. The pledge of allegiance can't be said in public schools and it is fine to burn the American flag. Our English language can not be forced on anyone because we violate their rights to be taught in their native language. We need to redefine our definition of marraige so that same sex couples can mainstream their lifestyle. It is fine to put racial quotas on hiring practices and university admissions even if they do not promote equality. Illegal aliens have rights too. I must also be tolerant of all faiths, however heretical. And so on.

[RZZZA]

Uhm..."whitey", "cracka" nor "Honky" = the N word with the er at the end. Neither whitey or cracker or honky has the same power as the N word has. If a black guy calls you whitey, you call him blackie. If a black guy calls you cracker, then you call him chocolate. If you call a black person a n***er though...there is nothing he can say back to you, that word has the power to dehumanize like no other word in the English language, there is absolutely NO verbal equivelant response a black guy can say if someone calls him a n***er.


edit-Danzig, you do realize that there is a difference between the word :wub: and the N word with the er at the end, right? :wub: means "brother" or "compadre" or "my kin"...and it usually will not be edited. The N word with the er at the end is the way white people say it, it denotes hate, bigotry, oppression, slavery,etc...

[danzig]

Uhm..."whitey", "cracka" nor "Honky" = the N word with the er at the end. Neither whitey or cracker or honky has the same power as the N word has. If a black guy calls you whitey, you call him blackie. If a black guy calls you cracker, then you call him chocolate. If you call a black person a n***er though...there is nothing he can say back to you, that word has the power to dehumanize like no other word in the English language, there is absolutely NO verbal equivelant response a black guy can say if someone calls him a n***er.

Thats why the power of the word needs to be removed and treating it as a unholy taboo just adds to its power, its why I think your comic example applies well to it because it removes the taboo associated with the word and hence removes it power. As I said hopefully at somepoint the word will simply be a footnote in human history but unless you are calling people it I see nothing wrong with discussing or spelling it out in doing so but yet we dont I realize Im in the minority on these boards in that I generally believe that any limit on speech is a bad thing, regardless of the topic, the word or who may or maynot be offended. I rather live in a world that I may be offended by someone else then in a world where I have to constantly worry about offending someone else.

[Maron]

Uhm..."whitey", "cracka" nor "Honky" = the N word with the er at the end. Neither whitey or cracker or honky has the same power as the N word has. If a black guy calls you whitey, you call him blackie. If a black guy calls you cracker, then you call him chocolate. If you call a black person a n***er though...there is nothing he can say back to you, that word has the power to dehumanize like no other word in the English language, there is absolutely NO verbal equivelant response a black guy can say if someone calls him a n***er.


edit-Danzig, you do realize that there is a difference between the word :wub: and the N word with the er at the end, right? :wub: means "brother" or "compadre" or "my kin"...and it usually will not be edited. The N word with the er at the end is the way white people say it, it denotes hate, bigotry, oppression, slavery,etc...

thats called a double standard...
its the same word, if it is so offensive than they wouldnt have come up with this word ":wub:" that sounds almost the same...IT IS THE SAME!!!

they just use ":wub:" as something to dangle over everyones heads, so they can say they can do something that whitey cant.

btw ive been called the "n" word by a black person before (im white by the way)... and trust me he didnt mean "brotha"...he was pizzed off because i spoke out about him breaking in the lunch line. but u didnt see me pressing charges, or rioting in the streets, or boycotting all sports teams(actually happened one time)
but if i were to return the comment i would have been jumped by the whole lot of them.

there is a double standard and blacks are completely aware of it and use it to their advantage.

edit:

quotas for universities, because I think some people in the majority do get screwed because of it. But you also have to wonder, if those laws weren't in place, would these people be discriminated against?

no, i dont think that they would...if they work hard, earn good grades, and deserve to go than they would get accepted....all racial quotas do is take away admission slots from well-deserving academic elites and grant them to "filler" students that happen to be of a certain heritage.

this is a mistake

it doesnt matter what color they are... red, yellow, black, or white doesnt matter
only the students who are most qualified should be admitted.

[Legio XX Valeria Victrix]

Good point. It seems if you are in the majority you are expected to sacrifice your rights in the US. Plenty of examples of this.

Prayer is prohibited in public schools because others "might" find it offensive. Even though the Constitution states that this is one nation under God. The pledge of allegiance can't be said in public schools and it is fine to burn the American flag. Our English language can not be forced on anyone because we violate their rights to be taught in their native language. We need to redefine our definition of marraige so that same sex couples can mainstream their lifestyle. It is fine to put racial quotas on hiring practices and university admissions even if they do not promote equality. Illegal aliens have rights too. I must also be tolerant of all faiths, however heretical. And so on.

I don't necessarily think any of this is bad. I think that in a society where white English speaking European-descended Americans are the majority, you should have protections in place for the minorities; to a degree. Especially when you have a history of racial intolerance, which we sure as hell do. I disagree with affirmative action and quotas for universities, because I think some people in the majority do get screwed because of it. But you also have to wonder, if those laws weren't in place, would these people be discriminated against? If there's any doubt, than I can live with legislation protecting them, even if it sometimes puts a majority out. Then there's always the fact that minorities had to rough it for so many decades here, while the white majority cruised, so maybe its equitable that whites are suffering a little bit. Easier to swallow when its not happening to you, either way.

Also, minor issues, but you have some of your facts wrong there: Prayer is not allowed in public schools because of the non-establishment clause in the 1st Amendment, and the Constitution does not allude to God at any point, if memory serves me correct. It was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950s as a part of the Red Scare and McCarthyism, when Communists were the big bad Godless enemy. Same-sex marriage is only legal in two states, so it's hardly a national crisis in definition of marriage, in fact most states have upheld the traditional definition (man + woman). And (as of now) you can say whatever you want about other religions. Those Mormons are ****ed up. See?

[Ahlerich]

ya the white american suffers most of racism, gotcha @ danzig

well the winter olympic thing seems logic to me. in the countries where is lots of snow and winter the majority of ppl are white...

summer olympic stuff does not rely on snow (believe it or not) so there are way more black athletes

[jauggy]

Sephiroth, why don't you ask your Black and Asian friends why its not the same to be racist towards a white then towards an Asian/Black? I would like to know their opinion.

I'm Asian and live in Australia so i'll give my perspective on it. IMO it's worse for an Asian to take a racist slur from a white in Australia because we are in the minority. If everyone was to be racist then Asians would lose since there's less of us. Thus we are more scared and affected by racism then whites. So to me a White having to cop racism is not the same. However, in an Asian country, it would be in the reverse. A white having to take racisim from an Asian in an Asian country is worse than an Asian having to take racism from a white in an Asian country. Anyway that's my opinion.

[Emperor Dimitricus]

two words: Political Correctness. its gonna be the death of us. c'mon, we cant even have baa baa black sheep. we have to call balck people coloured. okay, fair enough, but i wish to be called uncoloured from now on. cos i am less white then they are black. and i will argue my case against anyone who will call me a rascist. i am totally for equality. this means i can slag a black person off as much as he can slag me off.

[therussian]

i am totally for equality. this means i can slag a black person off as much as he can slag me off.

Exactly. He calls you a "whitie" or a "cracka", you call him a ":wub:" back, and you see what happens to you. That's what's wrong these days. They call you derogatory names, and it's alright. You call them a deragory name, and Oh ****! It's a hate crime!!!

[Musha]

Exactly. He calls you a "whitie" or a "cracka", you call him a ":wub:" back, and you see what happens to you. That's what's wrong these days. They call you derogatory names, and it's alright. You call them a deragory name, and Oh ****! It's a hate crime!!!

Your russian so you dont have any say on this issue.

From what i checked there are not enough black people there for you to have to deal with this issue

I don't necessarily think any of this is bad. I think that in a society where white English speaking European-descended Americans are the majority, you should have protections in place for the minorities; to a degree. Especially when you have a history of racial intolerance, which we sure as hell do. I disagree with affirmative action and quotas for universities, because I think some people in the majority do get screwed because of it. But you also have to wonder, if those laws weren't in place, would these people be discriminated against? If there's any doubt, than I can live with legislation protecting them, even if it sometimes puts a majority out. Then there's always the fact that minorities had to rough it for so many decades here, while the white majority cruised, so maybe its equitable that whites are suffering a little bit. Easier to swallow when its not happening to you, either way.

Also, minor issues, but you have some of your facts wrong there: Prayer is not allowed in public schools because of the non-establishment clause in the 1st Amendment, and the Constitution does not allude to God at any point, if memory serves me correct. It was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950s as a part of the Red Scare and McCarthyism, when Communists were the big bad Godless enemy. Same-sex marriage is only legal in two states, so it's hardly a national crisis in definition of marriage, in fact most states have upheld the traditional definition (man + woman). And (as of now) you can say whatever you want about other religions. Those Mormons are ****ed up. See?

i still dont get what yor saying dude.





well then from now on no black people can call white people "honky" unless we deem them "cool enough" to do so.

oh and a very prominent and respected black man by the name of Bill Cosby says that it is the same word, so...it is the same word.

more of these kids following the "hip-hop" lifestyle should save themselves alot of misery and trouble down the road by looking up to mister cosby and other great black people all throughout history. They are all "living in the moment" and forgetting where they come from.
if they really appreciated what their ancestors had to endure then they would not be using slang words such as :wub:. the thing is... most of them just dont care. they live immoral and unsuccessful lives and want to blame "the white man" for all of their problems which is in itself reverse racism because anyone regardless of background can get ahead in america if they just try and are not lazy.... but to get back to my point of them not caring...ask any average black kid on the local high school basketball team who thurgood marshall is and they would just shrug... but ask them who any of these rappers are nowadays and they could write a book.

the majority of racism that exists in america is coming from young black people claiming that whites are racist.i have nothing against decent people of any race but i do have a problem with racism. and the people who are the first to scream racism are usually the main ones practicing it




Flames Removed! WBK

Your using stereotypes. And you forget bill codby is a cheater.


You need to get yor ****ing facts straight.





im from Alabama and believe me that is their number 1 insult for a white person down here.

oh and samson ...u dont have to double post, there is an edit button


That explains a ****in lot


Just ignore Samson/his other account he is a typical example of some one who cries 'wolf' once to often. He wouldn't say if he broke the law because we are meant to feel sorry for him.
Anyway he has been suspended so he has been punished for craeting another account. Good Job Mods!


And you yor just a little to happy with that.

[shadowarmy75]

You know what someone said, the rich black people grew up in white neighborhoods.