A couple of thing that irked me

[David93]

ok so camels, there are only about 3 units in the whole game and their all , they were used quite a bit in warfare and this isnt overly well represented, camels werent as fast or as maneuverable as a horse but they are a good bit bigger and more powerful, this allowed them to carry more armor and hit with alot of force.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There extra height gives the rider an advantage when fighting, coupled with the fact that they scare horses (which is represented) i feel that they are very underpowered and that some really cool and unique units could be added for them.

Elephants, as far as i can tell there is only one unit that has an arabesque, again elephants were used in several ways, not hugely, but the Kwaz used elephants when fighting the mongols and egypt had relatively easy access to elephants and they did use them in a least some warfare, but im not sure how much.
I think along with the one unit now, a unit of elephant archers should be added as an earlier version of the arabesque ones, a javelin unit and an armored unit, huge beasts like that could carry alot of armor.

Onto the Kwaz, when fighting the mongols they had an army of around 400,000 now alot of this was destroyed outside Samarkand, but i think there was about half left when they captured ugrench, can we have this army please? Along with some elephants? So that a good amount of resistance can be put up against the mongols?
Now i understand having a 200,000 man army in the game is impossible, but on a recent thread i seen that the mongols get 50 stacks if each of these is 2000 men thats a total of 100,000 estimates of the army they used to attack the Kwaz range from 90,000 to 200,000 (i think it was around 120,00) but this is a pretty accurate representation in game of the size of the mongol forces, no were else is the actual size of a kingdoms army historically accurate, they were just to big, so why the mongols?
On a small side note why is the shah of the kwaz trapped in the capital? After the death of his father he fled regroped and brought back an army that defeated the mongols in battle (the only defeat in Genghis khans life time)
so can either the kwaz be more powerful or the mongols less powerful to make it more historically accurate?
I was just wondering what peoples thoughts were on this and if they thought that they would make good additions to the game?

[Ferdiad]

Yes to every thing ecxept the K shah changes, I like how they get crushed in the east.

[k/t]

I suppose by "arabesque" you mean "arquebuse". I kept wondering what kind of graphics settings you have that allow you to see such patterns on the elephants, but then I realized what you meant.

[David93]

I suppose by "arabesque" you mean "arquebuse". I kept wondering what kind of graphics settings you have that allow you to see such patterns on the elephants, but then I realized what you meant.

oops, yea, i cant spell
ferdiad, do you think k-shah should get elephants? just not an increase in army size?

[Ferdiad]

oops, yea, i cant spell
ferdiad, do you think k-shah should get elephants? just not an increase in army size?

Elephants would be very cool, we don't have enough elephants as it is.

[Point Blank]

Next RC gives camels their due.

[David93]

Next RC gives camels their due.

Are we getting Dromedarii for ERE and maybe some Cataphract like units?

[Tyrael.]

3 camel units?? i never used a camel before, but that is wayy to little. Good thing their getting a boost

[Point Blank]

Stats of camels presently in the game are being revised along with some of their animations in melee. If someone can source armored camels it would be good though I honestly have no idea about the availability of such units in medieval times.

[David93]

Stats of camels presently in the game are being revised along with some of their animations in melee. If someone can source armored camels it would be good though I honestly have no idea about the availability of such units in medieval times.

Ok i couldnt find a good source for a heavily armored camel (though i see no reason why there couldnt have been one) but if worst comes to worst then a unit like this seems reasonable
Bedouin heavy camels
Skilled and natural riders of camels these men have chose to ride these large beasts into battle, gathering together what armor they could they form a formidable anti cavalry and infantry force charging into battle with lances before engaging with swords
shield- 5 to 6
Skill- 7
Armor 6-7
thats about 18 total.
Does that seem reasonable?

Most camels in medieval times were used to carry supplies or more as transports for men who would then fight on foot. The saddles that were around allowed camels to be used as a fighting platform and their smell might make horses a bit jumpy or more easily spooked but I don't know if I buy that the smell alone would send horses to flight. However because camels were slower than horses and not as agile in a head to head fight the horseman would have a significant advantage.

I dont think that it was just the smell, horses are natural bred flight animals, when you try and get them up close with a bigger, exotic animal they wont like it, if they dont understand weather its a predator or not then they will be skittish, charging horses into men and other horses is alot easier as the horses are used to both, so i think thats what would have made the horses skittish and hard to control, I think the height advantage given by the camel would mean that they would get the advantage, i think that extra height and the ability to strike down at your opponent would give them the advantage.

[Ichon]

Never heard of camels being used as shock cavalry in medieval times. Maybe there is some battle somewhere as camels were capable of charges and actually in some ways better suited than horses at least to overcoming men arrayed against them.

Camels can carry heavier loads per body weight than horses so can carry more armor or baggage and have better stamina over longer distances but are not as fast or agile so not as useful in various terrains. Also camels do not like the damp and have issues operating long in wet regions(basically wet is the signal for them to breed and prolonged wet messes up their hormones).

Most camels in medieval times were used to carry supplies or more as transports for men who would then fight on foot. The saddles that were around allowed camels to be used as a fighting platform and their smell might make horses a bit jumpy or more easily spooked but I don't know if I buy that the smell alone would send horses to flight. However because camels were slower than horses and not as agile in a head to head fight the horseman would have a significant advantage.

However a force of men mounted mostly on camels could cross largely barren lands and move quite fast and was well suited to raids.

Only times I've read about camels as shock cavalry is the Parthians tried to use camels against a Roman army but the attempt was mostly unsuccessful.

As far as the OP's comment on Mongols vs K-Shah... 120,000 Mongols(fewer Mongols but subject peoples integrated might be even more amazing) were an amazingly integrated force for the times. The Khwarezmian forces were powerful but the invasion came suddenly and the Mongols were successful too quickly for a size able force to be raised to counter them. A few of the Mongol columns had some violent battles but it was the sieges that cost the most casualties. Most of the Khwarezmian forces were vassals to the Shah and not all were even Muslim though most were. Many simply switched sides or had their homelands overrun before being able to give battle under the Khwarezmian banner and merely switched allegiance to the Mongols. The fact that the Mongols required submission was a special humiliation to people who took Islam seriously though and led to greater resistance than was wise and the subsequent rebellions led to the depopulation of the former Khwarezmian empire as the Mongols did not have patience for that sort of thing and not much respect for urbanized people who made up a large part of the former Khwarezmian empire's population. Most of the major Persian/Islamic cities were sacked repeatedly and razed in the initial Mongol invasion and following rebellions and suppression.

The actual Khwarezmian people from their own region resisted the Mongols longer but eventually had to flee or become vassals to the Mongols and the stubborn ones who refused that were probably the 'mercenaries' which went and eventually sacked Jerusalem.

So really the forces aren't that unfair for Khwarezmians except first few turns of late campaign but then if they had a larger army their economy couldn't handle it anyway. Really the Khwarezmian empire was caught quite surprised with few of the forces the Shah could call upon as vassals prepared and the Mongols advanced faster than the Khwarezmians could organize coordinated resistance and also were willing to bribe key people with positions or lands as Mongol vassals. The only reason resistance continued as long as it did was due mostly to religion, terrain, and Khwarezmian pride.

[Point Blank]

Saw a documentary on the crusades where they were examining why camels continued to be used in battle. They compared them to horses in terms of speed, agility, responsiveness etc on sand, and the horse came out way ahead. They concluded as David93 said that the camel was in fact significantly larger than the typical horse of the day, and as such was still valuable in combat, especially pushing into enemy formations rather than an outright charge as such.

[Ichon]

Saw a documentary on the crusades where they were examining why camels continued to be used in battle. They compared them to horses in terms of speed, agility, responsiveness etc on sand, and the horse came out way ahead. They concluded as David93 said that the camel was in fact significantly larger than the typical horse of the day, and as such was still valuable in combat, especially pushing into enemy formations rather than an outright charge as such.

Yeah- I agree that in some ways camels are better suited than horses but agility is fairly important if you are breaking into a formation of men and there are fallen men, horses/camels and other things all over on the ground.

I think in the right situation camels could probably do a fairly devastating charge but they should have very high terrain penalties outside of their normal environments.

Camels could be given very high mass but lower speed and less charge stat so they can maybe be used effectively for example to push infantry back from a gate in a defending town or as counter cavalry units where their higher mass stops a horse charge and perhaps the traits where cavalry is afraid can be effective in the following melee or even better if the stopped cavalry is then swarmed by infantry or hit by another cavalry unit. The only thing is probably many horses were accustomed to camels near where camels are plentiful so not all cavalries should be equally affected but not sure how to script that.

Ok i couldnt find a good source for a heavily armored camel (though i see no reason why there couldnt have been one) but if worst comes to worst then a unit like this seems reasonable
Bedouin heavy camel

I dont think that it was just the smell, horses are natural bred flight animals, when you try and get them up close with a bigger, exotic animal they wont like it, if they dont understand weather its a predator or not then they will be skittish, charging horses into men and other horses is alot easier as the horses are used to both, so i think thats what would have made the horses skittish and hard to control, I think the height advantage given by the camel would mean that they would get the advantage, i think that extra height and the ability to strike down at your opponent would give them the advantage.

It depends on the training of the horse alot. I've ridden young horses near bears and other types of predators and they are hard to control while they can smell the other animal- older horses react in the same way but much more subdued about it. Seeing the other animal but not smelling it horses aren't as reactive. So you can say that the older horses were already exposed to the smell and used to it or just they are more fully trained and responsive to the rider. I do know there is a big difference in the wind direction though in how fully the horses react. So even untrained horses near camels might not react until in their midst in a melee. I'd assume most combat mounts were very well trained however. People in those days knew their lives could depend on that. Of course they are trained for different things but... game can't replicate the variety very well.

As far as height advantage of the camels... maybe its a slight advantage in close melee but the maneuvering before the melee the horses would have a big advantage and the horseman could has the initiative to close distance and strike or fall back or circle etc... I don't think camels would necessarily have advantage aside from their greater mass and perhaps their smell affecting some horses. In all it probably works about equal for close melee but a formation of camels could probably stop or even push back a formation of horses.

I don't know enough about camels to know if they operate in similar herd behaviour to horses and if any differences would impact frontal charge abilities. I actually have some articles bookmarked on camel herd dynamics but I have to go to work briefly today and didn't have time to read them yet.

[Point Blank]

Camels could be given very high mass but lower speed and less charge stat so they can maybe be used effectively for example to push infantry back

There is a category for exactly this in the new RC, with adjustments to mount speed, mass, charge, animations etc.

[Forever Steadfast]

I agree with the sentiments towards camels being more pack animals than anything. I'm sure there were warriors who rode them into battle; the Bedouins come to mind. But I don't think you'd see common cavalry tactics employed with the camel. It just isn't fast enough for the shock and awe of a cavalry charge. I could see mounted archers using camels as kind of a "firing platform," seeing as they're taller than the standard horse, giving the rider a better vantage point from which to fire from.

[Ichon]

Depends on the gait- from what I've seen of camels they are very rocking gait... but I don't know enough to say if there are some with smoother gaits. Otherwise height advantage for archers might be something.

[Forever Steadfast]

Yeah, they aren't the smoothest ride. Its been quite a few years since I've ridden a camel (as a child, I rode camels with my family in Tunisia on vacation). What I meant by firing platform was exactly that: an unmoving firing platform. Or one that moves very slowly. Not so much like horse archer tactics, as just a mounted archer firing from a standstill.

[Moritol]

camels: yes
elephants: no, not as long as a unit of javelinmen is able to kill one unit of elephants... thanks to CA

[Ferdiad]

camels: yes
elephants: no, not as long as a unit of javelinmen is able to kill one unit of elephants... thanks to CA

Give elephants more hp then.

[Point Blank]

This can be easily fixed by removing the 'thrown' tag from the EDU.