[Preview] The Normans.

[AnthoniusII]

ok you caught me. i pleed guilty as charged

So you cheated on us didn't you?
You know what happens to those that provided false infos...

But as mercyfull guy i will let you chose your execusion style.
This
Or this?

Now...seriusly...yes we talk seriusly sometimes.
My friend Wareg helmets with masks were used even in the era of the Frankish empire.
We agree that they were not common sight but that does not mean that they did not exist.
Norman italian knights could easily copy masked helmets from Romans and that is why such style helmets were more common in Italian Norman knights even in the 1st crusade 1097AD.
So you see that evolution is not an act of a momment but it takes time...
Afcourse ItaloNormans continued to use these helmets for longer time than the other europeans that changed theirs with those "buckets"!
After all the Normansicilian kingdom lasted less than 200 years.
In a documentary in History chanel about the doom's day the documentary showned equipment of the Normans. Similar helmets were used even less than a decate after 1066AD.

[Wareg]

It is strange becouse in Chandax theread in matmohair1's post there is that picture of such helmet from 1138 is one of the earliest...
So do you think that such helmet is evolution of Roman helmet? What kind of Roman helmet do you mean? Something like this from screenshots using by Pecheng noblemen?
I thought that such mask is evolution of strip protecting nose in nasal helmet...

[AnthoniusII]

Masked helmets -after the fall of Sassanid empire-were a direct influence (in eastern europe of Avars and other steepe people just like the kite/leaf shields and stireups.
I am sorry that i can not show it here -cause of copy rights- butin the June a new book for Roman imperial guards (10th century-1025) will be published and
shows such a roman masked helmet that could be an inspiration of Italonormans or the people before them just like they adopted so many other features like long scale/lammelar cuirasses ,that other europeans "refused" to adopt until the 1st crusade.

[Wareg]

Interesting, I didn't know about such (similar to Italo Norman) Roman helmets.
Thanks for answer

In such situation... Quickly, order messenger with papers and stop execution! Maybe It isn't too late...

[AnthoniusII]

Hmmm changing my mind about the execution will harm my prestige and ruin my authority...
From times to times some executions must be done!

[Wareg]

I feel guilty of this massacre

Is Sutton Hoo helmet also Roman origin? It is a bit similar to Italo-Norman helmets....

[neoptolemos]

I feel guilty of this massacre

Is Sutton Hoo helmet also Roman origin? It is a bit similar to Italo-Norman helmets....

Sutton Hoo is a Saxon helmet found in a Saxon burial site.

[Wareg]

Ok, maybe I didn't ask clearly enough. I mean: that helmet is Saxon but is It influenced by Romans?
Have both of helmtes (Italo-Norman and Sutton Hoo) the same, Roman ancestor?

[Heathen Storm]

Ok, maybe I didn't ask clearly enough. I mean: that helmet is Saxon but is It influenced by Romans?
Have both of helmtes (Italo-Norman and Sutton Hoo) the same, Roman ancestor?

The Sutton Hoo helm does not have Roman ancestry. It actually comes from old Vendel-period Swedish helms like these ones. The Saxons and the "Vikings" were very close in area, so before the Saxons invaded England they were highly influenced by the Danish and Swedish tribes (during the Vendel period), so the influence carried over.

Vendel

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Valsgarde

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Gjermundbu

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In fact, I would say that the Italo-Norman helm is much closer to the Germanic style helms, like Valsgarde helm, or the Gjermundbu helm, rather than a Roman helm, considering the origin of the Normans. The Gjermundbu or Valsgarde may in fact have been predecessors to the Norman helm. We know the Gjermundbu helm was used until the late 11th century (possibly even later in the north) so it's quite plausible the Normans used a helm identical or similar to these.

[Wareg]

Did typical Italo-Norman helmets, with mask covering all face, appear also in Scandinavia or another areas influenced by Normans (Britain, Normandy, Kievan Rus) or only in Italy?

[Andytheplatypus]

Holy anthonius. Really amazing how much you guys have accomplished since I have last checked this out. Really excellent quality. Cant wait for it to be done.

[+Mr.Crow+]

This is a typical Siculo-Norman masked helm used during the XII century (starting from about 1130 AD) :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This type of helm is very similar to some french helms used in the same period (expecially in the north of france) but, in this particular design, it was invented by Siculo-Norman. It don't know if it has any roman ancestor...i just know that it was a very good defence against swords hack (during the XII the sword became the first waepon used by south italian knight, displacing the axe)

For sure this kind of helm didn't exist beetween 872 and 1071...

[Matthæus]

for the second time.
I'm am aware of facts, however due to aesthetic reasons (lack of diversity) i decided to use this helmet and surcoats for upgrade of nobles unit a little bit to early.
Normans are emerging faction in our mod after year 1000.
Since helmet and surcoat are present on upgrade of a elite unit it will take some time for Normans to produce it. So you won't be seeing it before mid-11th century.
could you live with it ?

[+Mr.Crow+]

for the second time.

could you live with it ?

dear friend, you are free to do what you want...please, don't be angry with me, i'm a friend...according to me, you are free to add also this kind of helmet to avoid the "lack of diversity":

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It doesn't mind...i've just read the discussion about the italo-norman helm and i've say what i know about it because i'm south italian and i've done many researches about it for my mod (CSUR)...

It is not my intention to start a flame or trolling this discussion...I know how difficult is to menage a mod or a part of it...i'm an artifex just like you...

I've a lot of respect for this beautiful mod and Anthonius II is a friend for me ...and an helm will not change anything...it is just a particular that only experts will notice...

Sorry for the disturb...

[Matthæus]

Sorry for the disturb...

no problem at all.
i do appreciate historical reality a lot, however in CBUR in a few cases I took some liberty (most of those got with lack of any kind of reliable evidence).
damn i almost got away with it

...and an helm will not change anything...it is just a particular that only experts will notice...

good - lets us keep masses in the dark
they can't complain if they don't know.

i think surcoat is also out of mod's timescale but Anthony insisted on its inclusion.
so we have these "futuristic normans"

[VINC.XXIII]

All its possible with figurines.
"Hasting 1066" says the adversiting

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This "historical" comic have been made under the ferule of norman historians, from Rouen's university. Never such colored coats are featured into. Though its perhaps those norman historians who have mistacked.

"The Epte, from the Vikings to Plantagenets, t.1: the Rollon's Blood"
authors:
Darvil, Eriamel, Balland

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

More here:
http://www.aurorefolny.com/2007/01/l...antagenets-t3/

[+Mr.Crow+]

i think surcoat is also out of mod's timescale but Anthony insisted on its inclusion.
so we have these "futuristic normans"

Friend, I've give a look to all the images in this thread and i can say that there are not any other futuristic thing

I'f you mean the scale surcoat or the leather surcoat, i can assure you that they are historically correct

Except for the siculo-norman helm, your norman roster is perfect ...a really good work!+rep!

[Jason Wolf]

The pictures in the preview aren't showing.

[achilles-91]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDFtF_OgJ2Y
Check this video, you can see many of norman units zoomed in.

[achilles-91]

Is it possible to get those norman (familia) shields ? I would liek to use them if possible.