Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 180

Thread: [HISTORICAL ISSUE] - Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

  1. #1
    Wallachian's Avatar Tribunus
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    7,168

    Icon5 [HISTORICAL ISSUE] - Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    What do you guys think were the greatest defeats suffered by the Ottomans between 1345 and 1530? These are my favourites, there is no particular order

    1. The battle of Ankara 1402 . It was a great tactical and strategic victory by Timur against the armies of Bayezid the Thunder, who just 6 years earlier had defeated the European crusaders at Nicopolis. While the size of the two armies are disputable, modern day historians estimate the army of Timur was of about 140,000 and that of Bayezid of no more then 85,000. Timur had outmaneouvered Bayezid before the battle and gained the favourable ground. He had also negotiated withe Bayezid's Anatolian and Tatar allies to switch sides during the battle. The Ottomans attacked first but were beaten back by the arrows of the Timurid horse archers. Eventually, the tired and thirsty Ottomans were routed. Bayezid himself was captured after the battle and died within a few months as a prisoner at Timur's court. The crushing victory of the Timurids resulted in the Ottoman Interregnum, civil war and postponed the fall of Constantinopole for 50 years.
    2. The first siege of Vienna 1529. The siege was the pinnacle of Ottoman expansion into Europe. After the victories over Hungary the sultan Suleyman the Magnificent seized the opportunity and besieged the city of Vienna. His army amounted to around 120,000 troops who were faced by about 23,000 defenders. Suleyman gambled on attackign Vienna because his troops were faced by harsh conditions, unwilling allies, many artilery pieces were bogged down and lost and the troops were in a poor state of health. After several failed attempts to take the walls of the city, the Ottomans beat a costly retreat, losing many men and baggages in the process. The failure of the siege marked the start of the empire's stagnation and their farthest point of expansion.
    3. The siege of Belgrade 1456. After taking Constantinopole, the sultan Mehmed II The Conqueror rallied all his forces and attacked Hungary. Belgrade, the key to the defenses of southern Hungary was besieged by a force of about 60,000 Ottomans (some sources say up to 100,000). The regent of Hungary, Hunyadi quickly gathered a small strike force and attacked the besiegers attempting to lift the siege. The resilience of the defenders and the bravery of Hunyadi's troops who charged against the Ottoman cannons brought fear in the hearts of the Janissaries who fled the field and along with them the whole Ottoman army retreated. The victory stopped the Ottoma advance into Central Europe by 70 years but came at a dear price as Hunyadi died soon after due to disease which had broken out in his army.
    4. The battle of Vaslui 1475. The Ottoman Beylerbey of Rumelia Suleiman Pasha was sent with an army of up to 120,000 troops against the Moldavian voivode Stefan III (known as the Great). Stefan attacked the Ottoman army with approximately 40,000 Moldavians and 9,000 allied Szekely, Hungarian and Polish troops at a bridge over the Barlad river, an ideal position for a defender. The Moldavians main force drew the Ottomans over the bridge while a concealed force attacked the Ottoman right flank. Under the pressure of the two-pronged attack the Ottoman force collapsed into panic and over 40,000 Turks were butchered or fell off the bridge and drowned. The battle was described as the greatest victory of the cross of the islam. It was a great tactical victory, however it did not have a long lasting effect as in the following years the Ottomans defeated the Moldavians and brought back the status quo.

    I'm sure there are other great defeats like the wars of Skanderberg, the Battle of Breadfield, the Battle of Irong Gates, Krusevac etc. But i chose these four because they are either great strategic or great tactical victories. What other great battles would you consider and why?
    Last edited by SpyrosM91; January 03, 2012 at 11:37 AM.

  2. #2
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    yo, there
    Posts
    3,306

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Battle of Dubravnica - Fought in the summer of 1380 or December 1381, on the Dubravnica River near Paraćin in today's central Serbia, between the Serbian forces of Prince Lazar of Serbia led by commanders Vitomir and Crep and the invading Ottoman Turks of Sultan Murad I. The battle was the first historical mention of any Ottoman movements into Prince Lazar's territory. It was the first bigger clash between Serbian and Ottoman forces, after Battle of Marica. After this battle there is no record of any hostility between Lazar and the Turks until 1386. The Serbian army emerged victorious, although details of the battle itself are scarce. The victory temporarily slowed the Ottoman invasion of the Balkans.

    Battle of Pločnik - Fought in 1386 (or, according to other sources, in 1387[2]), at the village of Pločnik, near Prokuplje in today's southeastern Serbia, between the Serbian forces of prince Lazar Hrebeljanović and the invading Ottoman Turks of sultan Murad I. It was the second clash between the Ottomans and forces commanded by Lazar, the first being the 1381 Battle of Dubravnica, and this battle would precede the ultimate Battle of Kosovo in 1389. King Tvrtko I of Bosnia sent auxiliary troops and the Bulgarian tsar Ivan Shishman joined the coalition, but he was unable to send troops. The Serbian army used heavy knight cavalry charge with horse archers on the flanks. Miloš Obilić, later a hero at the Battle of Kosovo, was wounded by arrow in the battle. The Serbian army emerged victorious, although details of the actual battle are sketchy. The Serbian victory temporarily slowed the Ottoman invasion of the Balkans, and set the stage for the Battle of Kosovo between the two armies in 1389.

    Battle of Bileća - Fought in 27 August 1388 near same named town between Bosnian forces led by Duke Vlatko Vuković and Radič Sanković and the Ottomans under the leadership of Lala Shahin Pasha. It ended with total defeat of Ottoman army, in which Lala Shahin Pasha was almost killed. First facing the Turks at Rudine, the Bosnians finally fought near the town of Bileća and gave them a defeat, which delayed the Ottomans' advances into Bosnia.

    sorry for using wiki, i'll find some better sources when i get time, and translate it
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
    Under patronage of respectable Annaeus
    Patron of honorable Giacomo Colonna


  3. #3
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    yo, there
    Posts
    3,306

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    oh sorry guys i didn't know it was about the greatest battles. i thought it was about battles with ottoman defeat
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
    Under patronage of respectable Annaeus
    Patron of honorable Giacomo Colonna


  4. #4
    Wallachian's Avatar Tribunus
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    7,168

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Yeah my idea was to engage in a discussion as to which were the Ottomans' greatest defeats and why. But that's ok, yours were an interesting read either way. They definetly have a role in slowing down the Ottoman advance, at least until Kosovo.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Ottomans were masters of making huge armies of poor trained fanatics...

    But you forget the siege of Rhodos 1522, when 300 hospitallers were holding 6 months Rhodos against 200 000 turkish soldiers, and when they surrendered, they took with them all valuable things. And the turkish loses were about 100 000. That is not defeat, it is worse

  6. #6
    Hrobatos's Avatar Tribunus
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    7,335

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    how could 200 men kill 100 000? thats a farytale
    if they had artilery maybe, but no other way

  7. #7

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    I think wikipedia has another opinion about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Rhodes_%281522%29
    Proud Tsardoms: Total war Concept Artist.


    Best of my work for Tsardoms: TW [link]
    thinkerman.deviantart.com/

  8. #8
    Bagatyr's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Some where in Space
    Posts
    1,646

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    how could 200 men kill 100 000? thats a farytale
    if they had artilery maybe, but no other way
    They have but theyr number was around 7500 and have killed probably 20 000 turks not more.Every force loosing 100 000 man will colapse ! It is absolutly imposible until XVIII century .




  9. #9

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Yes 100 000 is a joke, If artillery is not working, sieges are always trouble for Ottomans, defenders are always had a advantage and Ottomans weak againts heavy armoured defenders, Turks are mainly missile specialists and good at horsemanship, lack of the hand to hand combat infantry is weak side of the Ottoman armies, In the sieges Ottoman infantry is mainly light infantry like Azabs and dismounted sipahis.
    Last edited by Tureuki; April 02, 2011 at 07:40 AM.

  10. #10
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    yo, there
    Posts
    3,306

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    100000 is very much fairytale for medievals. Even turks couldn't gather that much. It is based by historians who just put number by their point of view. Medieval armies could had 20000- 30000 men in battle. Average number would be some 15000
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
    Under patronage of respectable Annaeus
    Patron of honorable Giacomo Colonna


  11. #11

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    100000 is very much fairytale for medievals. Even turks couldn't gather that much. It is based by historians who just put number by their point of view. Medieval armies could had 20000- 30000 men in battle. Average number would be some 15000
    I think it depends on the state and the time frame. There are several sources pointing that in the early Bulgarian- Byzantine battles the armies were- 50-60 000 for the bulgarians and 60- 70 000 for the romans. One such example is the battle of Achelous or battle of Pliska.

    I mean at that time these states didn't have much rivals, their territories were large enough to gather that much men.
    Proud Tsardoms: Total war Concept Artist.


    Best of my work for Tsardoms: TW [link]
    thinkerman.deviantart.com/

  12. #12
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    yo, there
    Posts
    3,306

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Yeah my idea was to engage in a discussion as to which were the Ottomans' greatest defeats and why. But that's ok, yours were an interesting read either way. They definetly have a role in slowing down the Ottoman advance, at least until Kosovo.
    even kosovo wasn't a defeat. I read couple days ago one critical survey of kosovo battle (the englsih one, i should start bookmarking or saving links :p). He says that in the end it was draw. By his research, serbian reserves were not used, even if they were ready. Thing is that bad commanding and informing was actual reason of both sides to retreat in the end. With all evidence, he says it was mostly draw, both sides proclaimed victory with reserve troops left. Thing is that after kosovo, ottomans could invade with more army but serbia not, and what is the most important, ottomans had great command and control of the army, while serbs were very much in disintegration
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
    Under patronage of respectable Annaeus
    Patron of honorable Giacomo Colonna


  13. #13
    2Shy's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Shumen, Bulgaria
    Posts
    1,688

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    People I think that Uder_Siege didt post it corectly.He ment this siege http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Rhodes_%281480%29


  14. #14
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    yo, there
    Posts
    3,306

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkerman View Post
    I think it depends on the state and the time frame. There are several sources pointing that in the early Bulgarian- Byzantine battles the armies were- 50-60 000 for the bulgarians and 60- 70 000 for the romans. One such example is the battle of Achelous or battle of Pliska.

    I mean at that time these states didn't have much rivals, their territories were large enough to gather that much men.
    c'mon do you really believe in these numbers?
    yes, it depends of state, but even ottoman empire couldn't gather 60000 for one battle
    remember, at battle of velbuzd bulgarians came with very much numbers (counting 15000), so as serbs (18000). after that defeat, bulgaria never gain power as it was before.
    so, for battle of kosovo, serbia came with all their menpower, counting max 28000 (it was probably 20000, some say 40000 which is nonsense).
    those large numbers are usual for byz sources. they are not real
    now, let's see other european battles
    battle of grandson (burgundy 20000 vs swiss 18000)
    battle of nancy (burgundy 3000 vs 10000 swiss)
    battle of agincourt (england 6000 vs france 36000 (this is possible, but not realistic. it is true that england defeated france with less soldiers, but france probably had much smaller number than 36000)
    battle of chojnice (teutonic order 14000 vs poland 19000)

    so, it's obvious, average number is 15000, while they could gather army of 20000-30000 for battles (stronger states more, but not much)
    no battles of 60000-70000 men, it would be devastating for medieval period, in which people died of very much deceases , and health was on vey low level)
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
    Under patronage of respectable Annaeus
    Patron of honorable Giacomo Colonna


  15. #15
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Posts
    3,468

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkerman View Post
    I mean at that time these states didn't have much rivals, their territories were large enough to gather that much men.
    It's not only that. One of the main differences is the recruitment - by Tzardoms' time, most armies were fully or almost fully professional (regular troops + mercenaries, eventually local levies/militias when defending), while in those earlier times armies mostly consisted of the "armed peoples" (въоръжен народ) type. Plus, of course, early FBE was a warrior society, while late SBE was a very much settled agricultural one.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    those large numbers are usual for byz sources. they are not real
    Except those numbers aren't from Byzantine sources (at least not alone), but from analyses of modern historians about the army potential of Byzantium at the respective period. Which period, I repeat, is extremely different from the one in Tzardoms' and the two situations simply cannot be compared.
    Last edited by NikeBG; April 02, 2011 at 08:45 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    it is explained here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Bulgarian_army

    and to add: the ottomans could use only muslims in their army, which limited seriously their army numbers.
    Last edited by Thinkerman; April 02, 2011 at 09:22 AM.
    Proud Tsardoms: Total war Concept Artist.


    Best of my work for Tsardoms: TW [link]
    thinkerman.deviantart.com/

  17. #17
    2Shy's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Shumen, Bulgaria
    Posts
    1,688

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkerman View Post
    and to add: the ottomans could use only muslims in their army, which limited seriously their army numbers.
    Nope -the ottomans used many christians from their vassals (plus the jennisary units at the begining were christian soldiers who converted to islam) and latter by the form of voynuks (cavalry or infantry).


  18. #18
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Posts
    3,468

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    That's if you don't count the vassals, of course, which were a very important part in the Ottoman military strategy, at least during their conquest of the Balkans.

    Edit: Ah, ninjad!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Yes there is Voynuks and vassal forces but I don't think the Ottomans used them every battle, Janissaries are Muslims their origin doesn't matter they grew up as a Muslim, also they are just a small part of the Ottoman armies until devshirme system abolished and muslim-born people accepted to Janissary units.
    Last edited by Tureuki; April 02, 2011 at 09:49 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by 2Shy View Post
    Nope -the ottomans used many christians from their vassals (plus the jennisary units at the begining were christian soldiers who converted to islam) and latter by the form of voynuks (cavalry or infantry).
    Of course, I didn't count the vassals. And the thing with the jannisaries didn't happen so fast. During the ottoman early conquests it is obvious that they used mostly native soldiers. The voynuks were only helping armies and appeared later. They didn't take part in serious battles, cause they didn't have the right to do so(Islam).
    Proud Tsardoms: Total war Concept Artist.


    Best of my work for Tsardoms: TW [link]
    thinkerman.deviantart.com/

Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •