Writers' Study Chat and Feedback - Ask all your questions here!

[Gandalfus]

As long as the prejudice is bound in the context of the story, then I view it as being totally acceptable. The character's views don't have to be those of the author, and the author could even choose to deconstruct those views in the way they are presented in the story, with the prejudice perhaps coming from a gap in the character's knowledge or some irrational hatred that is exposed as such. More than likely, this prejudice will be in line with commonly held views of the time period/location.

In the end, the author isn't telling their own story, or conveying their own thoughts. The character is a separate entity, and we shouldn't worry about what they think, more why they think it and how it affects their characterisation. I also think its entirely possible to have a likeable character who is prejudiced or even racist, considering there are figures of history that many consider to be 'likeable' that held questionable views and prejudices.

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

I included some, in some old stories of mine; no one ever seemed to mind, or even really pick up on it. I don't know if anyone has ever made something like racism the central theme of their AAR though. Would be interesting to see.

[Alwyn]

I enjoyed reading this discussion about how to represent prejudice in AARs and creative writing without endorsing it or making our characters unlikable, thank you! Turkafinwë's suggestion of an explanatory note is helpful and I like your use of the word azijnpissers! I agree with Admiral Van Tromp that contextualization, honesty and nuance are vital tools for writers, that flawed characters are more interesting, that ignoring prejudice can be more perverse than having a character express it and that we can show the effects of harmful behaviour (such as drug dealing) on other people, without needing to directly criticise it.

As mad orc said, our characters can be anti-heroes. Gandalfus made a good point about where a character's prejudice might come from (a gap in knowledge, an irrational hatred) - that sounds helpful for writers thinking through what motivates our characters. Yes, prejudiced characters can be likeable - while Jack Aubrey's attitude towards Catholics in Patrick O'Brian's novels is not attractive, the character of Jack Aubrey remains a likeable one. I agree with Hitai that it would be interesting to see an AAR in which racism or something like it was a central theme (it was one of the themes in my Empire Total War AAR, Kite Pèp Mwen An Ale: Let My People Go, although it was more directly about slavery and a slave uprising).

Meanwhile, please join me in congratulating Adamat, winner of Tale of the Week 273: Chichen Itza, on the winner's circle thread, voting in Tale of the Week 274: Slavery - and everyone is invited to join the parade in Tale of the Week 275: Carnival!

Also, please don't miss the opportunity to vote for your two favourite AARs in the 75th MAARC (MAARC LXXV) and (if you have creative writing which qualifies) to enter the MCWC XVIII!

[NorseThing]

Late to the discussion! Aspects of thing common in other historic settings but not so admirable today are always a bit of a problem. I have, in the past, tended to have the character more forward thinking as a bit of a compromise between today's attitudes being in conflict with yesterday's attitudes. Contrasting the characters by one looking a bit more modern in attitude may be a bit of a weasel out by me though. Hitting the objectionable head on as part and parcel of the times is probably a more honest way of handling this as mad orc had mentioned. Turkafinwë's foot note idea is also excellent as Alwyn had recognized.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Would there be room here for a non-TW AAR?

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Would there be room here for a non-TW AAR?

There would indeed

[NorseThing]

I am embarking on an experiment to help encourage budding writers to post their first After Action Report (AAR) in the M2TW AAR forum - 'Official' Single Post AAR Thread . Please take a quick read. Also please take the time to post your own single post AAR to the thread as well! I would have preferred a thread for all TW games to be a single thread for this. Any suggestions will be eagerly desired. Also, any suggested edits to the format and instructions will be highly appreciated. I would like this to succeed and perhaps it can lead to more activity in the AAR forums.

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

I am embarking on an experiment to help encourage budding writers to post their first After Action Report (AAR) in the M2TW AAR forum - 'Official' Single Post AAR Thread . Please take a quick read. Also please take the time to post your own single post AAR to the thread as well! I would have preferred a thread for all TW games to be a single thread for this. Any suggestions will be eagerly desired. Also, any suggested edits to the format and instructions will be highly appreciated. I would like this to succeed and perhaps it can lead to more activity in the AAR forums.

This is such a wonderful idea! I might have to break the old quill out and write something.

[NorseThing]

And you did! A great contribution for the new thread!!!! I hope to see many more contributions from all the members!

[Owlparrot3]

About sequels .

As many of you may have guessed ,'Death in the sands' is a direct sequel to 'Blood and Diamonds' featuring the son of William Trent ,Albert Trent .
Now i am writing both stories at once to add fun features .

For ex -A local Sicilian governer called Cicio Rizzi will soon help out Albert Trent in Italy to make money and get a few important contacts with men closely associated with Mussolini in 1922 .To explain why he is helping him is simple .
In Blood and Diamonds ,my next chapter or next to next chapter is soon gonna feature Cicio Rizzi as a soldier of fortune back in his youth in the 1890s and William Trent saves him from a deep jungle and becomes his close friend afterwards .

In effect ,my stories are getting more depth by my writing both stories at once .
I am gonna call it the Sequel -Prequel trick .

Please comment about what you fell of this trick .

[Caillagh de Bodemloze]

This sort of thing can be extremely effective if it's done well.

The first example that springs to mind is Iain M. Banks's Use of Weapons. It tells two connected stories, both in the same book. The two stories take place at different times; one is told in ordinary chronological order, and the other in reverse chronological order. The chapters alternate between the stories (so that there's a chapter from one story, then a chapter from the other). As you go through the book, you're learning more and more about both the 'present-day' story, and the past of the main character. And, as it turns out, that's more complicated than it looks...

For Use of Weapons, I'd say the technique really does add depth to both the story and the characters. The added complication I mentioned comes as something of a shock when you discover it. That would have been difficult for Banks to achieve so effectively if the story were just told in the right order.

Does anyone else have a favourite example of this technique? Or an example of where the technique didn't work very well? It's an interesting way of writing a book, I think.

[Admiral Van Tromp]

I think writing and posting related storylines at the same time is a rather interesting idea. I've actually been thinking of doing something like that for Words of the Forgotten, but in a different fashion - something closer to the parallel narrative you did for your 20th century story a while ago.

But getting back to "sequel-prequel." You have to be careful and smart with spoilers: you must think which story benefits most from being the first to reveal something - it isn't always the prequel.

You also have to tell the audience how they need to read to get the best experience. Are you writing two standalone stories that can be enjoyed by themselves? Should one read them in chronological order? Should one start with the sequel? Is it best to alternate? If it is, in which places should the audience alternate?

As for examples, I can think of a lot of books that start in the middle or in the end and then tell you how it all got there. But the closest to this I can remember right now is Stephen King's It, with the amazing back and forth between the characters' chidlhoods and adulthoods.

[NorseThing]

I was actually thinking of doing something like that in an AAR where characters from two factions would be featured. Of course there motivations are different and their perspective on the same information would be skewed and incomplete. The reader would see the differences though. A bit tricky to pull off. I was thinking about Norway's Crusade in with King Sigurid who was in alliance with King Baldwin and the joint siege of Sidon in 1111 or some time about then. Perhaps some screenshots from each perspective and also alternating chapters. The literary device is common but I have never been tempted to use it for posting on TWC. It seems a bit too chaotic if the chapters are too short. I can do nothing but encourage mad orc to pursue this idea to the fullest!!!

[Owlparrot3]

Thanks Norse Thing ,Calliagh and Admiral Tromp for your help .I will try my best to make it better .

[Alwyn]

Late to the discussion! Aspects of thing common in other historic settings but not so admirable today are always a bit of a problem. I have, in the past, tended to have the character more forward thinking as a bit of a compromise between today's attitudes being in conflict with yesterday's attitudes. Contrasting the characters by one looking a bit more modern in attitude may be a bit of a weasel out by me though. Hitting the objectionable head on as part and parcel of the times is probably a more honest way of handling this as mad orc had mentioned. Turkafinwë's foot note idea is also excellent as Alwyn had recognized.

I tend to use the same compromise with my characters. For what it's worth, I don't see this as a 'weasel out'. For me, the extent to which it makes sense to include historical prejudices depends on what our stories focus on. I'm thinking of the differences between Patrick O'Brian's Jack Aubrey stories and CS Forester's Horatio Hornblower series - both stories about British naval officers in the Napoleonic wars. As I see it, the Jack Aubrey stories have characters talking in a more historical style and focus more on ordinary life on a warship of the Age of Sail, so it could seem odd if prejudices were left out. The Horatio Hornblower books focus more on how the main character solves problems - such as how to survive when a warship's captain has become dangerously paranoid but has absolute authority, or how to defeat a fort with a ship of the line, when the ship is always going to lose in an exchange of cannon-fire. Hornblower feels more (for me) like a compromise of today's attitudes and the attitudes of his era. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I am embarking on an experiment to help encourage budding writers to post their first After Action Report (AAR) in the M2TW AAR forum -....

This is a great initiative. For anyone considering writing a Medieval II AAR, if you are nervous about writing your first AAR or unsure about having enough time to continue, I hope that you'll consider taking part in NorseThing's Single Post AAR.

... The first example that springs to mind is Iain M. Banks's Use of Weapons. It tells two connected stories, both in the same book. ...
Does anyone else have a favourite example of this technique? Or an example of where the technique didn't work very well? It's an interesting way of writing a book, I think.

Alastair Reynolds uses this technique in several books set in his 'Revelation Space' universe. I particularly enjoyed his Chasm City which shows us an 'early' time period, when slower-than-light colony ships are travelling to found a colony, and a 'late' time period set long after the colony was founded when rival factions are at war.

I was actually thinking of doing something like that in an AAR where characters from two factions would be featured.

That can work well. In Andraste's Children I was enjoying telling the stories of a Roman officer, Servius Figulus and an Irish refugee, Connor of the Ebdani, alongside the chapters about Mabon and Rhiannon of the Iceni. I recommend reading the Shogun II AARs by Merchant of Venice (Way of the Bow), Hitai de Bodemloze (Yōkai) and Robin de Bodemloze (Takeda), they use characters to tell stories in interesting and creative ways.

[Alwyn]

Thanks Norse Thing ,Calliagh and Admiral Tromp for your help .I will try my best to make it better .
Currently i am on vacation .
I am writitng a bunch of AAR's on paradox forums
1)Mex
2)Alt

But don't worry ,i am not going to stay there for long .TWC is still my primary home and i am gonna return in a few days .

This is advertising for ongoing AARs. Here's a friendly reminder from Writers' Study staff:-

What the Chat Thread is for, and what it isn't for

Everyone is reminded that:

• Discussion of proposed AARs (such as 'am I allowed to post a non-TW AAR?'), challenges in writing ongoing AARs (such as discussion of character development) and writing in general (such as what creative writers can learn from a novel or TV series) is welcome on the Chat Thread
  
• Everyone who is posting an AAR on TWC is welcome to advertise it on the Advertising Board (not on the Chat Thread).
• If you want to advertise an AAR on another forum, then the place to advertise it would be in your signature (not on the Chat Thread or the Advertising Board)
  

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

No one else wants to write one of those single post AARs? I was looking forward to reading some more. They don't take long at all to do

[Turkafinwë]

No one else wants to write one of those single post AARs? I was looking forward to reading some more. They don't take long at all to do

I am planning to do one this week (if I can find the time).

[McScottish]

No one else wants to write one of those single post AARs? I was looking forward to reading some more. They don't take long at all to do

No, but only because when I actually begin my West Seaxe AAR it'll be longer than a single post; not sure where to post it though, as there's no separate AAR section for Thrones as of yet.

[Caillagh de Bodemloze]

A new AAR section for Total War Sagas (which will include Thrones of Britannia, obviously) is planned. So please start writing in readiness for the arrival of the new section!