Writers' Study Chat and Feedback - Ask all your questions here!

[Kilo11]

Hey people, don't forget to head over to the MAARC LXXXII tie-breaker vote and cast your ballot. There were six entries this month in the MAARC, and we only have 6 votes so far in the tie-break. I don't know about everyone else, but I for one would find it to be quite sad if only entrants were voting in these things. So get on over there and be part of a democratic decision You've only got until Tuesday, so don't drag your feet!

[Caillagh de Bodemloze]

And don't forget to enter MAARC LXXXIII while you're there, if you're eligible!

(Also, we have a TotW competition, with the intriguing theme 'Leap of Faith', that needs some entrants. )

[Swaeft]

C'mon guys, why not take a leap of faith and go write a TotW?

I'm only kidding, hey, easy with those pitchforks!

I also see that the 3 Kingdoms AAR section has opened up! I wonder who will have the honor of being the person to post the first ever 3K AAR on this site.

[Derc]

Sorry, I prefer 4K HDR.

[Skotos of Sinope]

So how long is the submission period for MAARC LXXXIII going to be open? The reason I ask is that I'm working on another update, but it won't be ready until next week or so.

[Alwyn]

The MAARC LXXXIII has only one entry so far (it would be great to see more), so you'll be okay, Skotos. Meanwhile, don't forget to enter Tale of the Week 292: Leap of Faith and MCWC XX: C'mon, Guys, Don't Leave Kilo11 on His Own!!.

Honestly, I don't really understand why this distinction would be made so strongly. I mean, obviously some stories focus more on one or the other, and there are notable examples that wholly emphasize only one of those, but to my mind basically all stories should have a healthy balance of both. If it is all character I will lose interest because I need a reason to follow what the characters are doing, and if it is all plot it will rapidly feel somewhat flat (as the characters are then likely to be nothing more than set-pieces). So I would say that authors should aim to have stories that are driven by a plot, but where the characters have a real impact on the plot's development, and the characters' impact(s) flow from their own personal development(s).

I think you make a good point about the need for a balance between plot and character, with the storyline and the personalities of the people influencing each other.

For AARs, I wonder if this involves a wider choice, between 'campaign-driven' AARs (in which we play the campaign as we normally would and write a story about that), AARs based on 'story-driven' campaigns (in which we have a story in mind, and play the campaign to fit the story) and AARs based on 'character-driven' campaigns (in which we play the campaign according to the personalities of the major characters).

I wonder if writers can relate to that way of thinking? I don't see this as a simple choice of one of these three options. We might play a campaign normally most of the time, but delay sending reinforcements to a critical battle because it will make that encounter more exciting. We might mainly play a campaign according to the story we planned, but, when the brother of one of our main characters is killed defending a city, and the enemy sacks that ctiy, we might feel that it's right for the main character to lead an increasingly bitter campaign to avenge his fallen brother (even though that wasn't the story we intended to write.) This classification won't relate to everyone, since not every AAR is based on a campaign (some use the game-world as a setting, without focusing on a campaign.)

[Cookiegod]

The difference between plot driven and character driven is in the approach. You do need to do a mix of both, but you can tilt either way. It's not a dichotomy when it comes to the endresult, but it's a dichotomy in the approach. When you do plot driven, you're planning. When you do character driven, you're growing.
Advantages: Plot driven stories are easier to do and often give better ends; character driven stories are richer.
Disadvantages: Plot driven stories are often either predictable and flat, or erratic and make no sense. Character driven stories often grow out of proportion and are often impossible to finish.

I do believe it's useful and perhaps crucial information for anyone to know the differences, the advantages and disadvantages, no matter what kind of creative writing you're doing, and then invent your own personal approach to writing that is a mix of both.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

I think you make a good point about the need for a balance between plot and character, with the storyline and the personalities of the people influencing each other.

For AARs, I wonder if this involves a wider choice, between 'campaign-driven' AARs (in which we play the campaign as we normally would and write a story about that), AARs based on 'story-driven' campaigns (in which we have a story in mind, and play the campaign to fit the story) and AARs based on 'character-driven' campaigns (in which we play the campaign according to the personalities of the major characters).

I wonder if writers can relate to that way of thinking? I don't see this as a simple choice of one of these three options. We might play a campaign normally most of the time, but delay sending reinforcements to a critical battle because it will make that encounter more exciting. We might mainly play a campaign according to the story we planned, but, when the brother of one of our main characters is killed defending a city, and the enemy sacks that ctiy, we might feel that it's right for the main character to lead an increasingly bitter campaign to avenge his fallen brother (even though that wasn't the story we intended to write.) This classification won't relate to everyone, since not every AAR is based on a campaign (some use the game-world as a setting, without focusing on a campaign.)

I do think it consists of choices, and isn't as simple as "well, balance them all!" That may be an ideal outcome, but inevitably there must be a focus in someone's writing, an angle if you will, one that represents their focus when creating text.

It is certainly viable to view things in the scope of 'campaign driven', 'story driven', and 'character driven', especially in a total war context, though it is equally viable to try and come up with a true balance between them. One often compliments another, even if I hold that there is generally a focus when people write. Cookie covered what those focuses tend to entail, but since I like to babble, I'll go into each of them.

"Campaign Driven" can be more widely called "Gameplay Driven", and with that little change the classification actually does work, especially in the medium that is AAR writing. After all, an AAR put in the simplest terms is you reporting what occurred on the map. Characters don't matter, the story itself doesn't really matter, in this single focus you simply want to tell the world what you did in a game and flavor it with text. I believe this is what "Roleplay Hotseats" in the hotseating forum boil down to, with very rare exceptions and even so, only somewhat. The focus is your gameplay, everything resolves around how you do in the game and the ultimate goal of 'winning the game', and not necessarily on plausibility and character decisions and all those things that come with a more conventional style of creative writing.

You can say a piece of creative writing built to win a competition, or many people's attempts to freeform roleplay are also 'Gameplay Driven'. Think about it - writing to win a competition may heavily involve crafting stories and characters, but you are doing it to win, not for the sake of having those worlds and things. Unless you are very good at it, it often shows when you are writing something for the sake of winning, not for the sake of the content. Similarly, it's a common trap in roleplay to focus on simply winning, good story and character development be damned. Simply put, it is a focus on out of context results.

Character driven I'd actually consider the poorer candidate to focus on as far as what makes up popular writing. Game of Thrones in its early seasons is the only exception I know, and that's because it blends itself well with being story driven to make it look like the focus even though the results are clearly well crafted story decisions to rile up the audience. To be character driven and nothing else would mean you explore in depth the causes and effects that make everyone do what they do, and I actually consider that pretty fascinating. It's best served as the main focus with roleplaying, where your context (chat room, thread, whatever) is the setting and your character is the catalyst for change. It's downright required for a good story driven plot, given characters need viable motivations to do what they do. But if your focus is on 'making a good story', it should be a secondary element. You can make it appear very strong by being good at crafting context and decisions that logically fit (again, early GoT), but if your decision making boils down to writing the most plausible choice, I imagine it could actually turn out more boring or make less sense than what sounds good on a plot level. As cookie said, it can also result in too many arching streams of plot to reach a satisfying conclusion.

What I think will be different here is my approach to plot-based. I actually think plot based done right is a merge of all three with its own twist. Yes, you plan - but this doesn't necessarily mean having everything out in detail, and rather having a vision for how you want the reader/viewer to react. Unless you're in a freeform roleplay context where the aim is to pose a world and see how people react, this is a crucial element. Good character dynamic is intrinsic to good plot. We can relate to seeing individuals acting natural, and the ability to relate with a story is just another element of what it means to be truly plot focused. That is, unless you have a Michel Bay plot, but hey, there's a spectrum.

To make your writing sound flat and predictable, or badly justified and erratic, is to do a bad job at being plot driven. Plots are the widest instrument of a writer's vision. Characters, and being character driven, is a tool within that aim for a creative writing venture intent on making a story, and if you want to make an engaging story, character development is key, unless you have some other goal that drives at something more or less than someone's ability to interpret characters as real individuals making real decisions.

[Alwyn]

Cookiegod's distinction between plot-driven writing as "planning" and character-driven writing as "growing" sounds helpful, for me. CommodusIV made good points that good character dynamic is intrinsic to good plot and about the need for writers to make a choice. I wonder how many writers here feel that the choice between plot-driven writing and character-driven writing is a conscious one. I imagine that it's an instinctive choice - I could be wrong. When I start a new AAR, I think about the writing style I'll use and what it will focus on, but I don't consciously think about whether to focus on plot or characters.

Thanks to writers who have already entered the MAARC LXXXIII, the MCWC XX and Tale of the Week 292: Leap of Faith. If you have writing which is eligible and if you haven't entered, please consider entering.

Don't miss out on the latest Critic's Quill article. Tigellinus's Shogun II AAR In the Light of Dusk is a hidden gem of the Study and you can find out why in Swaeft's review.

[Turkafinwë]

,

That's the sound of the last call to vote on the Duel between King Athelstan and Swaeft! So if you have not already cast your vote then the time has come for you to do so!

Thanks to everyone who already voted!

[Caillagh de Bodemloze]

MAARC LXXXIII now has enough entries to go to a vote. We'd like to give more people a chance to enter - but of course we don't want to delay things for too long. So please come along and join us by entering your AAR!

In addition to that, why not vote in Tale of the Week 292 - and join in our consultation about the future of the MCWC (and the MAARC)?

[ZhongBoy]

Hey guys, I'm wondering if anyone here is willing to provide feedback or advice on my R3K AAR. The save-file may have been corrupted so I'm afraid the first Three Kingdoms AAR may be a total bust, but I'm still determined to begin a second AAR soon from the same scenario, but with a different strategy in the game and different approach to my writing.

Here's some self-criticisms, feel free to tell me if they are accurate:

1. The AAR is too long-winded, especially in the segment dealing with Diaochan and Lu Bu. I tried to write as close as possible to a translated text of Romance of the Three Kingdoms, but while the writing style there fits telling the wide story of a massive civil war across a crumbling empire, it does not really fit a story focused around an individual warlord and his faction.

2. Grammatical and continuity errors are present in my writing, although this is more of a symptom of me rushing through chapters and not yet being able to edit posts due to a low post count than anything else.

3. Phrases such as "and so" may work in narration to a movie, but once again, doesn't really fit if the tale is just focused around an individual warlord. It's too dis-associative and doesn't really help the reader feel a connection to the characters or plot.

For my next AAR, I am considering working on a diary format such as the one found in the famous "I am Skantarios", or perhaps writing my story focused around one or two main characters instead of trying to tell the story of the faction as a whole. However, before I do that, I'm interested in hearing whether or not my criticisms are correct, and in which areas I could find improvement.

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...e-Kingdoms-AAR

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

I can give a critique in a while depending on how other projects go today, if you like. If I get to it quickly enough, I'll edit into this post.

And the edit was rather quick - not much I needed to run through.

1. I wouldn't say so. Aside from a few notations below, which do not seriously detract from my overall impression, I think you're giving it a good effort.
2. Grammar quality and such in general doesn't strike me as a serious problem, though if you're concerned, it's prudent to run things through a third party spellcheck first and do some editing before publishing. I have the luxury of being able to edit 5 times after a post; since you don't, at least for the time being, it is best to be more careful. What does stand out almost immediately to me is how dialogue tends to be presented. There's more :'s put in as a prelude to dialogue than there should be, which is usually none at all. The natural flow from piece to piece in that sense is pretty weak. "And Li Ru began as follows" in particular stood out as rather clunky.

I advise referring to books and other such written works, even online ones, to get a feel for the layouts and formatting that result in natural grammar setups. I'm not very good with such things myself, but it is something I can at least identify.

3. You seem to be bouncing between two ideals in writing; the textbook approach and the narrative approach. Textbook approach would be reporting things as they happen in a detached way, or as you put it, dis-associative way. This is fairly frequent in the writing, though not to any extent that it comes out bad or any worse than what I've seen otherwise on the board. Indeed, your writing I consider to be some of the better material in the section. That said, I think what you are striving for is a more narrative approach, or put another way, the storybook approach. For that, again, I advise to look into books and try to identify the sort of structures that are used ti compose paragraphs and scenes. Identify the details that are most often put in and most often omitted, and for starters, attempt to emulate them. By no means clone them, but I think there is much to be said for first recognizing how other writers produce things and then using their example to build up the backend of your work even as you take a unique style and story of your own.

But, ultimately, I think this is a strong beginning effort, and a style to refine, not pitch and replace.

[ZhongBoy]

I can give a critique in a while depending on how other projects go today, if you like. If I get to it quickly enough, I'll edit into this post.

That would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the offer.

[Kilo11]

Hey ZhongBoy, I've not yet stumbled across your AAR yet, so I can't give any thoughts about it specifically (though I will try to wander that way soon and check it out ), but one good general tip for writing that is always just to read more. In particular, read more things in the style in which you yourself would like to write. You'll find yourself subtly imitating little techniques and tricks, and it will get your writing much closer to what you want without you having to pay much attention to it or overthink everything. Above you said that you wanted to sort of follow the romance of the three kingdoms, but that you thought that style might be too much for a smaller story about one warlord and his faction. That is underselling stories in general though, I think. You can write a massively grandiose story about one man going to the grocery store to buy milk, and that story can be one very worth reading. Style can match content, but doesn't need to, and I think it can even add some richness and depth to use a style that is slightly "grander" than what your story might intuitively merit. The main thing though is that you need to commit to that style, and maybe make some hard story-telling decisions here and there to ensure you don't compromise it.

Long story short, I will check out your AAR if/when I can, but until then, can't say anything too specific about that. But generally, read a lot of things written in the way you yourself would like to write. And finally write in exactly the way that you want to write, and don't get too hung up on whether your style fits completely. It's a learning process anyway, and you won't know whether or not it really works until you've given it a good run-through with some commitment!

[Kilo11]

Hey everyone, Welsh Dragon was bold enough to enter the current MAARC, bringing the total number of entrants up to 5. If we can get one more then we'll have a full set and be ready to roll a complete competition. So if you have an AAR that fits the bill, or if you know someone who does, nominate it ASAP!

@ZhongBoy, your AAR is certainly eligible for entry, and the MAARC is a great way to find a new base of readers who may not be aware of newer AARs that have popped up, so it could be particularly beneficial if you were to enter. Just saying. Also, now that you have 25 posts, you should be able to set yourself a personalized signature, and that can also be used well for advertising the AAR, by putting a link in the signature. All info on doing that is easily put together in this post from Shankbot de Bodemloze (be sure to show him some love with a shiny rep!).

[Cookiegod]

I fear if we keep this competition going long enough, I'll no longer be the only one competing with a finished AAR. Get moving bois!!!!

[Caillagh de Bodemloze]

It's too late for new entries for MAARC LXXXIII now, I'm afraid. But you can vote even if you didn't enter!

[Kilo11]

Hey folks, there are only two days left to vote in the current MAARC. So far there are only 6 votes and there are 5 entries. Given that I assume each entrant has voted (if you haven't, then get on over there now!) that means only one other person has put his/her opinions into the hat. In my opinion, that just ain't enough, so everyone head over there and cast your ballots. After all, democratic distribution of laurels requires some input from the demos, so do your part

[Welsh Dragon]

Hey folks, there are only two days left to vote in the current MAARC. So far there are only 6 votes and there are 5 entries. Given that I assume each entrant has voted (if you haven't, then get on over there now!) that means only one other person has put his/her opinions into the hat. In my opinion, that just ain't enough, so everyone head over there and cast your ballots. After all, democratic distribution of laurels requires some input from the demos, so do your part

Thanks for the reminder. I haven't actually voted yet, as I'm torn between the other entries (I never vote for myself.) But I agree, lets get as many people reading the AARs and voting please!

All the Best,

Welsh Dragon.