Writers' Study Chat and Feedback - Ask all your questions here!

[Owlparrot3]

I dislike this idea ,unlike political discussions ,each writer here is valued and the shame for the loser may be too great .We don't want no bad blood .I hope you agree .

[Welsh Dragon]

Hi all,

Sorry I haven't been around much recently. Life, family, health and Christmas have been keeping me busy. Anyway, I'm hoping to start working on Toutatis Favours The Brave again, but I've run into a problem I know some of you have encountered before, and I'd appreciate some advice.

Somehow I've lost 14 turns worth of saves from the campaign that the story is based on. I only have up to Turn 11, but I'd played to Turn 25.

So I was wondering if anyone has any advice on how to handle this situation, or can recommend any good articles about it?

The good news is I have detailed notes of what happened in those turns, so I'm thinking maybe I can try to play the campaign as close to that as possible to get it to where it was. But some things that happened were by pure chance (like getting a particularly rare Household member,) and other things I had planned and in some cases scenes I'd already written were based on the AI's actions, which may not play out the same this time around.

Or would I be better off to just continue the campaign as is and develop the story based on how this "new" campaign develops?

On the plus side, what I've published so far only takes me to turn 3/4, so I have a bit of leeway before the story catches up with the save games I've lost. But any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

All the Best,

Welsh Dragon.

[Commissar Caligula_]

I guess you've got three choices really.
1 - Abandon the AAR
2 - Restart your campaign, and blame the changes on the inconsistent/untrustworthy narrator (perhaps they were drunk/concussed/a liar)
3 - Continue your AAR purely as a piece of creative writing without the gameplay basis

Good luck whatever ya do.

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Alwyn did actually write an article which touches on that problem You could always just delete the offending chapters based on the 14 lost turns, then start 'fresh' from turn 11; a little galling of a proposal perhaps, but it's not entirely different from an edit really, and you can reuse and re-imagine a lot of the deleted content anyway I'm sure. I think we often fall into the trap here where we think that once a chapter is posted, we can't go back and make massive edits or cut whole chapters out. It makes sense, considering the message board format and that 99% of the time we're writing and playing simultaneously (as opposed to finishing and editing the story before we post), but it's quite unrealistic really.

[Welsh Dragon]

I guess you've got three choices really.
1 - Abandon the AAR
2 - Restart your campaign, and blame the changes on the inconsistent/untrustworthy narrator (perhaps they were drunk/concussed/a liar)
3 - Continue your AAR purely as a piece of creative writing without the gameplay basis

Good luck whatever ya do.

Thanks Caligula. Those do seem to be my main choices. I definitely don't want to abandon it, but I think there may be a way to use both 2 and 3 while still keeping to my original aim of writing a story based around the events in the campaign. (See below.)

Alwyn did actually write an article which touches on that problem You could always just delete the offending chapters based on the 14 lost turns, then start 'fresh' from turn 11; a little galling of a proposal perhaps, but it's not entirely different from an edit really, and you can reuse and re-imagine a lot of the deleted content anyway I'm sure. I think we often fall into the trap here where we think that once a chapter is posted, we can't go back and make massive edits or cut whole chapters out. It makes sense, considering the message board format and that 99% of the time we're writing and playing simultaneously (as opposed to finishing and editing the story before we post), but it's quite unrealistic really.

Thank you Hitai. I totally forgot about Alwyn's article. There's some really good advice in there, thank you for the link. I get what you mean about editing. Thankfully the save games I've lost are a while after what I've published on here, so I shouldn't have to go back and edit my posted chapters (well assuming the game behaves once I put the updated versions of the few mods I was using on.

I think what I'm going to do is continue with what I have planned for the chapters up to turn 11 (maybe with a few tweaks as it seems that the changes made by Power & Politics have bizarrely given me an extra general and changed a few character skills.) In the meantime I can try continuing the campaign from my Turn 11 save, working with my notes to make similar choices where applicable, and see where it leads. As it happens, I'm really more of a written storyteller than a visual/screenshot one anyway, so it shouldn't be too much hassle if I do take some artistic license with events, to make it fit both the old and new timelines.

Thank you both. I feel much better about this now.

All the Best,

Welsh Dragon.

[Zeus Almighty]

The contests have been fun. Great works by all and I hope to keep doing them. It’s great repetition for the writing

[NorseThing]

I dislike this idea ,unlike political discussions ,each writer here is valued and the shame for the loser may be too great .We don't want no bad blood .I hope you agree .

I never want to shed the blood of a writer. I do want some new member activity though and that means we need to sell the idea of writing and posting here. I saw the duels as a few have now responded to my prior post and I thought that some tag team competition with a inviting a new member to post along side a Creative Writing Star might be a good idea. If staff likes an idea and then runs with it, all is good. If staff perhaps feel as you do, well we can still make some fine lemonade with the lemons!

[Zeus Almighty]

Personally I would harbor no ill will or bad blood for losing a competition or duel. I would use it as an opportunity to learn what my faults are. I’d love analysis of the dials as well. The “why’s” of voting.

[Welsh Dragon]

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!

I've found a backup of my missing save games on one of my old portable hard drives, so I haven't lost those 14 turns of progress after all. So I should now be able to continue "Toutatis Favours the Brave" without having to do a load of rewrites or scrapping a load of stuff.

Thank you again @Caligula and @Hitai de Bodemloze for your advice.

All the Best,

Welsh Dragon.

[Caillagh de Bodemloze]

@Welsh Dragon: That's not just good news, that's excellent news!

@NorseThing: This isn't any kind of official decision, or anything, but...

As I understand it, the reason we don't have duels (the old version) running at the moment is because nobody has wanted to start one for a while. I believe the last time one started it was never finished, which is naturally a risk in this kind of contest - and it would, of course, be a bigger risk if more people were involved. I think, also, Alwyn's right to say that TotW has provided quite a lot of the things duels were meant to provide - TotW is a quick contest, with limits set by WS staff.

Duels were always voluntary - if you were worried about losing in a duel, you just didn't take part in them. I'm sure if any form of duel took place now, that would still be the same. So although I understand mad orc's objection, I think it would be up to the participants to decide for themselves whether they were bothered by the risk of losing.

I think, also, that if people wanted to take part in a duel (whether as a team or as individuals), it would be up to them to agree between themselves that the duel would take place, and roughly how it would work (what each member of the team would do, for instance). Once they'd done that, they would need to approach WS staff to see if WS staff were happy to run the contest on those terms.

I don't think WS staff will ever be happy to classify some posters as "Creative Writing Stars" and others as "lesser lights", though. On that point, mad orc is correct: every writer here is valued, and we're not going to make that kind of distinction.

[Commissar Caligula_]

For the duels nowadays we could do it so Player 1 challenges Player 2, and nominates Player 3 who will choose the 5 key words, theme and picture. Player 1 and 2 would also decide between themselves whether they want a minimum and maximum word count or not.
If Player 2 accepts, then Player 3 makes a thread in a specific Duel sub-forum, and Player 1 and 2 have a fortnight to write their piece. Then Player 3 creates a poll, and everyone votes on the pieces with a heavy focus on discussion of the merits of both (since everyone knows who wrote which piece).

I'm suggesting a "Player 3" person, so that the Writer's Study staff don't get needlessly overworked.
In addition, since the Tale of the Week competition does to an extent already fulfill this role perhaps limit the duels so that

• No reputation or competition points are given by staff as a reward, but readers can feel free to rep whichever writer they like the most
• You are limited to being involved in one duel every month. This means that duels don't take over completely, and players are still encouraged to write for the Tale of the Week competition.

The formal challenge would have to be written in incredibly flowery language such as 'pon my honour good sir! I challenge thee to a duel whereby we may ascertain your true mettle. If you decline, all shall know you to be a lily-livered rapscallion. Also, hopefully someone artistic would be able to create a cool picture for the duel featuring two transvestites shooting at each other or something from Ridley Scott's The Duellists

[HunterKYA]

For anyone who may casually follow my story, Titanium Core: Borderlands, I'm having mixed feelings in keeping whatever continuation comes afterwards on TWC. I don't know what it is, though I suspect that more than anything, it has to do with the general lack of feedback whenever it is I post updates. Granted, I don't post near as frequently as in the past, nor do I think the story's better than it actually is. It feels overly disconcerting for what effort goes into the work that is posted here not to receive critiques, whether they be positive or negative, which feels off-putting. Which is why, if by the end of this latest version of the story I feel the next iteration would be best served in a dedicated writing community, then I'll leave what I've written here for posterity for everyone to read in their free time.

[Owlparrot3]

I would like to advise you to wait man(Hunterkya) .We all love every one here including you .

1)First of all i agree that personally i have read your story but
a)I have not been able to catch up to the latest update cause its big(Which is a good thing) .
b)I have not been able to give a comment because i want to see what happens ahead to comment .This is because i find world building stories a bit hard to understand until i haven't read it more thoroughly .

2)On a more open note .
a)Every story has its downtime .Even major stories take some time to be commented upon .I too used to hate the lack of comments before ,but they usually come .And what's more ,they come in groups .Once i was on the verge of giving up on a certain story when suddenly 5 to 6 people commented on it and gave me more inspiration and impulse to continue .

3)On an emotional note .
a)You are a great writer and i hate it when good people leave .

But even after this, if you still wish to go(If you feel that's best for your story) .Give us a link to the next address .
But i implore you to reconsider .

Regards .
Best of luck .
mad orc .

[NorseThing]

For anyone who may casually follow my story, Titanium Core: Borderlands, I'm having mixed feelings in keeping whatever continuation comes afterwards on TWC. I don't know what it is, though I suspect that, more than anything, it has to do with the general lack of feedback whenever it is I post updates. Granted, I don't post near as frequently as in the past, nor do I think the story's better than it is, it feels overly disconcerting for what effort goes into whatever work is posted here not to receive critiques, whether they be either positive or negative, which feels off-putting. Which is why, if by the end of this latest version of the story I feel the continuation would best be served in a dedicated writing community, then I'll leave what I've written here for posterity for everyone to read in their free time.

I actually understand where you are coming from about the interaction with the other writers and readers on TWC. I was a bit of a reader before even becoming a member. I do like to read these threads. I am a fan and a bit of a player in my own way. However, I can to the conclusion that we cannot all be readers with expecting others to do the writing. We need to do both and enjoy both. I want to encourage more writing for probably the selfish reason that it will lead to more for me to read.

I know that feedback is important. I am working on doing better at that myself, but more on that is still needed. The staff here are staff because they want to encourage the writing and I suspect they started out by being quiet readers long before they were members of staff or even members of TWC. I know that you want more than just a comment that I have read the post. Heck, that is pretty much like looking at the read count and nothing more. So, if you will continue to post -- I promise a better critique of both your posts and others on this site. Call this a bit of a late New Year Resolution!

To be honest, I can and have better critique skill, but I am also concerned that some will feel discouraged if even a small bit is perceived as negative. I want people to write better, but I know that practice is hard and rewriting three or four times a post may not interest many who are posting here. Yet, as a child I had to practice scales and passages on the piano in repetition that makes three or four rewrites 'child's play'. (Yes, that was too puny for my tastes as well.)

[Zeus Almighty]

Just a quick blurb about voting for the Tale of the aweek!

For anyone who hasn’t voted the Tales of the aweek are rather short reads and all very well done! If you have a moment while perusing the board stop in and give them a quick read and tribute by voting

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...8#post15508788

[Alwyn]

For anyone who may casually follow my story, Titanium Core: Borderlands, I'm having mixed feelings in keeping whatever continuation comes afterwards on TWC. I don't know what it is, though I suspect that more than anything, it has to do with the general lack of feedback whenever it is I post updates. Granted, I don't post near as frequently as in the past, nor do I think the story's better than it actually is. It feels overly disconcerting for what effort goes into the work that is posted here not to receive critiques, whether they be positive or negative, which feels off-putting. Which is why, if by the end of this latest version of the story I feel the next iteration would be best served in a dedicated writing community, then I'll leave what I've written here for posterity for everyone to read in their free time.

Yes, a lot of effort goes into a good story. Yes, it's frustrating when that effort is not rewarded with thoughtful comments. As mad orc said, stories do normally goes through periods with few or no comments. I hope that you'll continue to post your stories here; if you decide to leave, then good luck.

For what it's worth, I have a few suggestions for all writers who would like comments of a specific type, or more comments in general:-

- If you would like comments of a specific kind (such as detailed critique), you're asking readers to spend considerable time commenting on your story. What will you offer them in return? Will you arrange with one or two other writers to provide critiques of each other's work? You could contact writer(s) by PM, to see if anyone is willing to do this, or invite people here in the Chat Thread to form a group in which you'll agree to critique each other's work regularly. You can also edit the OP of your story to indicate the kind of feedback which you're hoping to get, or to say something about the style of writing you're aiming for.

- If you would like more comments, then I suggest commenting on other people's stories (and including a link to your story in your signature, if you have not already done so). Commenting takes time, I know. However, as NorseThing said, we need to be writers and readers (if we want writers here to be encouraged and improve.) if we are not prepared to spend our time commenting on other writers' stories, are they likely to comment on ours? The experience which writers have in the Writers' Study depends on the choices which we all make.

Just a quick blurb about voting for the Tale of the aweek!

For anyone who hasn’t voted the Tales of the aweek are rather short reads and all very well done! If you have a moment while perusing the board stop in and give them a quick read and tribute by voting

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...8#post15508788

Well said, Zeus Almighty! Everyone is invited to vote in Tale of the Week 270, to vote in MCWC XVII (thanks to all who have voted already) [edit] and to vote in the Writers' Study Yearly Awards 2017 (we have categories for AAR of the Year, Creative Writing of the Year and Best Newcomer).

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Question to all, how do you know when you've finally developed your writing skills, and when's the right moment to break the rules? Is showing and telling now becoming a cliche more than anything else?

[NorseThing]

Question to all, how do you know when you've finally developed your writing skills, and when's the right moment to break the rules? Is showing and telling now becoming a cliche more than anything else?

I do not think it so much about rules or breaking the rules. I do not know how I can improve except with practice. I try something. I try it again and again. Something like practicing the violin or the piano. I see how others react to what I produce and then make adjustments. I am still learning with training wheels, so maybe others can chime in with their ideas as well.

What did you mean by the show and tell cliché comment? I might be missing something there.

[Welsh Dragon]

Question to all, how do you know when you've finally developed your writing skills, and when's the right moment to break the rules? Is showing and telling now becoming a cliche more than anything else?

Every writer is different. Every story is different. So I'd say there's no hard and fast rules you have to follow all the time. Find what works for you in that story and at that point, and use that. Because for every writing "rule" there will be writers who have successfully broken that rule.

e.g. Don't make up new words... Well Shakespeare and Dickens did it all the time, and many of the words they coined now appear in our language.

Don't write in "purple prose." Well, the novel Shades of Grey by Jasper FForde (not to be confused with 50 Shades of Grey) is written heavily in purple prose. But it fits one of the central themes of colour. (It's set in a dystopian world where your status in the class structure is defined by the colours you can see, with the lowest class living their lives only being able to see red... so essentially they live their lives with "rose tinted spectacles" on.)

Show don't tell is okay as far as it goes. But sometimes you are better off telling than showing. For example, you may have an important piece of information that will come up later in the book, but "showing" it will divert too much from the story. Some authors have got around that by including fictional "newspaper cuttings" or more recently "website extracts" in their stories, getting across that key piece of information (sometimes hidden amongst several unrelated headlines,) and also giving an impression of a wider world, without taking up too many pages with a side story that only really effects the main one in a very small way.

So I wouldn't worry too much about having reached some landmark in your writing where you can now start breaking the rules. Use what feels right to you, and see how it goes. Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. But even if it all goes terribly wrong you'll still have learned something from the experience. And maybe you'll yourself writing again in the future and discover "hey, you know that idea that didn't quite work before. Well it would be perfect for this!" Good luck.

All the Best,

Welsh Dragon.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Every writer is different. Every story is different. So I'd say there's no hard and fast rules you have to follow all the time. Find what works for you in that story and at that point, and use that. Because for every writing "rule" there will be writers who have successfully broken that rule.

e.g. Don't make up new words... Well Shakespeare and Dickens did it all the time, and many of the words they coined now appear in our language.

Don't write in "purple prose." Well, the novel Shades of Grey by Jasper FForde (not to be confused with 50 Shades of Grey) is written heavily in purple prose. But it fits one of the central themes of colour. (It's set in a dystopian world where your status in the class structure is defined by the colours you can see, with the lowest class living their lives only being able to see red... so essentially they live their lives with "rose tinted spectacles" on.)

Show don't tell is okay as far as it goes. But sometimes you are better off telling than showing. For example, you may have an important piece of information that will come up later in the book, but "showing" it will divert too much from the story. Some authors have got around that by including fictional "newspaper cuttings" or more recently "website extracts" in their stories, getting across that key piece of information (sometimes hidden amongst several unrelated headlines,) and also giving an impression of a wider world, without taking up too many pages with a side story that only really effects the main one in a very small way.

So I wouldn't worry too much about having reached some landmark in your writing where you can now start breaking the rules. Use what feels right to you, and see how it goes. Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. But even if it all goes terribly wrong you'll still have learned something from the experience. And maybe you'll yourself writing again in the future and discover "hey, you know that idea that didn't quite work before. Well it would be perfect for this!" Good luck.

All the Best,

Welsh Dragon.

Thanks Welsh Dragon and Norse Thing.

By the way, I hope this can be answered in general, but on the AARs and Creative Writing Lounge, do you writers have any Eastern stories from Ancient Mesoptamia or any-non European settings? China? India?(I've seen quite a few Maratha AARs but nothing else.) And any stories(apart from Shogun 2) that are in non-European settings?

Bronze Age stories?

Meso-American stories? AARs?