The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

[JJDXB]

Yeah thats the video I mentioned in my post, as its about historical warfare he tries his best to tie everything back to combat and although its interesting some of it is kinda tenuous. Or at least conjecture pitched as fact: ie. the 'wobbly target' point.

Well, I guess that acted as sort of camoflage as the OP stated. Like zebras or even the warships of WWI, which were painted in cubist style to confuse submarines. Horos were big and colourful, so sort of broke up the lines of the warrior on the horse. Thus, if you have a archer trying to aim specifically at that rider, he will take a little longer to make his decision, which could mean precious time for the warrior.

[pulpnonfiction]

Tom Cruise, the last and most important of all samurai did not wear one. Therefore they should not be in this game.

[Shabby_Ronin]

I hate that video. It's constantly used as an argument against the framed horos present in the game.

[ManSh00ter]

Coz it would really be a pain in the ass to make a taisho unit that includes a not mounted ashigaru of say 3 towing the gigantic furinkazan wherever the taisho goes. Might as well make it a seperate unit. But for what? Aesthetic purposes? Identification? The Horo is so unique it already serves it.

But wait - I am not talking about walking totem poles - that article I linked states some of those flags and emblems were basically larger, more elaborate versions of sashimono. That would both look much better than ridiculous giant balls of cloth and it would make it easy to distinguish the general on the battlefield.

Also, if we step away from historical argument for a moment, in this game the general is a much more "hands-on" unit than what you would expect for its role and what was probably the practice in reality. As such it simply does not make sense for a fighting man to be burdened with such an ungainly piece of equipment. Granted you could say the same for very large sashimono. But large sashimono simply would look better on a battlefield than current horo.

Even if you consider it purely from a game design perspective, since the model in no way infers that its in fact a big ball of silk cloth wrapped around a lightweight wooden frame, and most players do not know what a horo is, the first impression it gives is that of a heavy sack of stuff, making the general look not only funny, but also ungainly and definitely unimpressive in a fight.

Sorry, but including horo in the game just doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

[Shabby_Ronin]

But wait - I am not talking about walking totem poles - that article I linked states some of those flags and emblems were basically larger, more elaborate versions of sashimono. That would both look much better than ridiculous giant balls of cloth and it would make it easy to distinguish the general on the battlefield.

Also, if we step away from historical argument for a moment, in this game the general is a much more "hands-on" unit than what you would expect for its role and what was probably the practice in reality. As such it simply does not make sense for a fighting man to be burdened with such an ungainly piece of equipment. Granted you could say the same for very large sashimono. But large sashimono simply would look better on a battlefield than current horo.

Even if you consider it purely from a game design perspective, since the model in no way infers that its in fact a big ball of silk cloth wrapped around a lightweight wooden frame, and most players do not know what a horo is, the first impression it gives is that of a heavy sack of stuff, making the general look not only funny, but also ungainly and definitely unimpressive in a fight.

Sorry, but including horo in the game just doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

Yes it does, it was practically weightless all things considered; it's wicker and silk. This whole argument is friggin stupid as hell. It IS historical, it IS in the game, get over it. There is a mod that removes it if it's so damn insulting to your sensibilities.

You were the guy that used his "experience with Japanese sword fighting" as a validation of your opinion. This isn't a chanbara movie.

I don't see all the arguments about the "practicality" of a medieval knight wearing a hundred pounds of armor. Which makes a lightweight horo seem infinitely more sensible.

[Brewskii]

Ooh nice, subject for debate. I'll be watching this thread

there's nothing to debate, CA implemented a historically accurate unit that a bunch of ignorant people think is "stupid".

[LordBiggums]

I don't understand how anyone could even think it is for protection when fleeing. Fleeing went against the Bushido and Japanese culture... why would they design something to protect them when fleeing. They were expected to fight and die, not flee unharmed.

[Baleurion]

Great post, so it basically evolved to a huge round ball due to almost Peacock reasons?
A sort of, bold display of combat prowess, "even with this huge flamboyant artful display, i can lead armies to victory".
Just like a Peacock's flamboyant feathers, attracting mates because it shows that they are "strong enough to survive DESPITE the huge flamboyant inconvenient feathers".

Interesting indeed, makes more sense than "stopping arrows". Also, running from a battle is dishonorable, so effectively by wearing it if it truly was an arrow catcher, would display the general as a coward even before he's fled, by indicating the possibility to do so by wearing it. Never underestimate man's capacity for boasting.

[Erwin Rommel]

It sort of served as an advertisement. Besides its an improvement from advertising by announcing loudly your lineage, your merits, rank and a call for a worthy opponent.

"YO! You have noticed the huge thing in my back. Good now that I caught your attention. I see your not intimidated by my awesomeness, then that means your a worthy opponent. FIGHT ME!!111"

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Of course Horos were made primarily for looks/status, but they do help stop arrows. That's the point, its not a totally useless piece of cloth on your back, it serves a purpose.

[Shabby_Ronin]

It sort of served as an advertisement. Besides its an improvement from advertising by announcing loudly your lineage, your merits, rank and a call for a worthy opponent.

"YO! You have noticed the huge thing in my back. Good now that I caught your attention. I see your not intimidated by my awesomeness, then that means your a worthy opponent. FIGHT ME!!111"

This.

[Brewskii]

I don't understand how anyone could even think it is for protection when fleeing. Fleeing went against the Bushido and Japanese culture... why would they design something to protect them when fleeing. They were expected to fight and die, not flee unharmed.

That's what a stereotypical samurai would do but, you have to remember that real samurai were human beings too and sometimes they got scared and retreated, it happened, read a history book.

[ManSh00ter]

Yes it does, it was practically weightless all things considered; it's wicker and silk.

And most people don't know that. Ergo, the impression it gives to most people is that of a hobo sack. You may not like it, but that's how it is.

This whole argument is friggin stupid as hell. It IS historical, it IS in the game, get over it. There is a mod that removes it if it's so damn insulting to your sensibilities.

Already using that, when I figure out how the engine works I'll model some proper looking insignia for the general and mod it in. Its not about that. I'm not calling for a removal from the game. I am simply arguing against all the "its historical" , because its not. Generals did NOT fight in a middle of a melee wearing those things. Historically, generals did not fight, they directed battles. Not in this game - in this game, they fight all the time. And here you are telling me that it makes sense for a fighting unit to wear ceremonial garments.

I guess they should then use ceremonial spears and swords too? Lower their attack and defense to 1 then.

You were the guy that used his "experience with Japanese sword fighting" as a validation of your opinion. This isn't a chanbara movie.

Nope, its a game. And if you are going to argument for a bad design decision with "historical" facts, I can argue against by a simple fact that no one in their right mind would go into a katana fight wearing a giant cloth ball on their back.

That's why it was purely *ceremonial*. As in NOT used in battle, especially not if you expected to actually fight. Which Shogun 2 generals do on a regular basis, again.

So cut it with "historical" stuff.

[Sol Invictus]

Invictus said it better than I did. Do I have permission to paraphrase your messenger point and edit it into the original post? It was really well said

Sure DakkaDon. Paraphrase away! Thanks for the thread. I found it very interesting.

[Spectre11B]

I don't understand how anyone could even think it is for protection when fleeing. Fleeing went against the Bushido and Japanese culture... why would they design something to protect them when fleeing. They were expected to fight and die, not flee unharmed.

Why does it have to used only when fleeing? The rider could simply lean forward and only expose his back when needed.

Regardless, I think the OP probably gives the most accurate purpose for its use. If there is one thing about warfare that can be said with some degree of certainty, it's that good ideas tend to pervade. If the claim that the Horo was an effective tool against arrows, then this idea, in some form, would have spread to other armies around the world. In fact, I have only seen it used by the Japanese which would indicate that it was more ceremonial than practical.

[last_name_left]

Well, they look silly. Remind me of larder ants......honey ants

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Shabby_Ronin]

And most people don't know that. Ergo, the impression it gives to most people is that of a hobo sack. You may not like it, but that's how it is.



Already using that, when I figure out how the engine works I'll model some proper looking insignia for the general and mod it in. Its not about that. I'm not calling for a removal from the game. I am simply arguing against all the "its historical" , because its not. Generals did NOT fight in a middle of a melee wearing those things. Historically, generals did not fight, they directed battles. Not in this game - in this game, they fight all the time. And here you are telling me that it makes sense for a fighting unit to wear ceremonial garments.

I guess they should then use ceremonial spears and swords too? Lower their attack and defense to 1 then.



Nope, its a game. And if you are going to argument for a bad design decision with "historical" facts, I can argue against by a simple fact that no one in their right mind would go into a katana fight wearing a giant cloth ball on their back.

That's why it was purely *ceremonial*. As in NOT used in battle, especially not if you expected to actually fight. Which Shogun 2 generals do on a regular basis, again.

So cut it with "historical" stuff.

All right buddy, I'm sure your "experience with Japanese sword fighting" is enough to make your opinion and speculation equal to fact.

I'm gonna go to the strip mall karate guy down the street and ask him his opinions on feudal Japan.

[Erwin Rommel]

Forget the effing arrow catching feature. Thats what the OP is about. Its an ad to your opponents to boost your penis. End of story.

[Shabby_Ronin]

Forget the effing arrow catching feature. Thats what the OP is about. Its an ad to your opponents to boost your penis. End of story.

It's why I hate that clip from that stupid show...it's the same type of stuff when they demonstrate ancient Chinese machine guns and other crap.

It's an advertisement, sign of status, heraldry or whatever you want to call it...

[Beowulf1990]

Actually, while the horo IS certainly historical and useful, isn't the static framed model sort of defeating the point of an actual horo? The cape is a good defence BECAUSE it flies loosely.